http://mattperger.com/The-EK43-Part-Three

http://mattperger.com/Extract-More-Better

 

That's so out of date though

Essentially, the EK43 can break coffee beans apart many more times without experiencing a drastically increased number of fines. This is one of the reasons why you can extract more with an EK43 without experiencing dryness or unacceptable bitterness.

​

 

It's all just soluble material - with enough time - surely every grind would dissolve the same (before it went stale obvs)

 

Are we really still at the point where we just go "hand wave", it's the EK43

[edit]

I just don't feel as though I have a suitable enough answer when questioned on my recipes by baristas, and as a result I get patronised because they've never had a proper EK43 shot or filter (Hell, I've barely managed many of those).

"It just does" is great and all, but as far as they're concerned I might as well be talking out of my arse.

 

High extraction only equals sweetness if it is even. It's easy enough to get a drip brew to 23-24% with just about any grinder, though most with a less even particle distribution will be sweetest (for that design) ~19-21%.

You're not always going to hit a super high extraction, it's not a given.

Immersions can be pushed up to their limit & taste sweet, but the extraction isn't as aggressive, nor quite as efficient as drip/espresso (percolation). A long steep in any brewer is going to be hard to overextract (by taste, not necessarily the %) as long as you have a declining temperature profile. Put 20g of coffee in your Aeropress, add as much, or as little water as you like, leave it to steep & when it hits 10%TDS jump on to your hoverboard, whizz over, and show me your holographic projection of your wristwatch/coffee refractometer/molecular transportation device!

We are used to the idea that bitterness has a single, easily definable cause - it doesn't.

Some beans are easier to extract, as are the same beans roasted, or processed differently, but your EY target is more driven by grind distribution than bean quality per se.

The coffee shot thing is essentially treating an espresso machine as a 1 cup, flat bed, pressurised drip brewer - If you can hit 23% with an EK espresso at 2.35:1 ratio, by grinding coarser you should be able to hit that same extraction even more easily at much longer brew ratios...theoretically, down to any TDS, pretty much. They used to have a thing called a caffe crema, a long shot pulled on an expresso machine to replicate a filter coffee...similar idea to the coffee shot, but perhaps not aimed a producing the same sweet & highly targeted result. There have also been fast brew ESE pods & lungo capsules too. The long coffee from an espresso machine isn't directly related to high extraction, more to target strength, but the more water you pass through a puck/bed the better your chances of a high extraction.

 

It's all just soluble material - with enough time - surely every grind would dissolve the same (before it went stale obvs)

No, only 24-36% is soluble material. The rest is insoluble cell wall.

 

H A long steep in any brewer is going to be hard to overextract (by taste, not necessarily the %) s, add as much, or as little water as you like, leave it to steep & when it hits 10%TDS jump on to your hoverboard, whizz over, and show me your holographic projection of your wristwatch/coffee refractometer/molecular transportation device!

Granted.

We are used to the idea that bitterness has a single, easily definable cause - it doesn't.

Okay - that's a good sentence, I can use and remix that sentence for great good.

The coffee shot thing is essentially treating an espresso machine as a 1 cup, flat bed, pressurised drip brewer - If you can hit 23% with an EK espresso at 2.35:1 ratio, by grinding coarser you should be able to hit that same extraction even more easily at much longer brew ratios...theoretically, down to any TDS, pretty much. They used to have a thing called a caffe crema, a long shot pulled on an expresso machine to replicate a filter coffee...similar idea to the coffee shot, but perhaps not aimed a producing the same sweet & highly targeted result. There have also been fast brew ESE pods & lungo capsules too. The long coffee from an espresso machine isn't directly related to high extraction, more to target strength, but the more water you pass through a puck/bed the better your chances of a high extraction.

Yeah got that - the finite time thing here makes this easy to understand.

Ta - is useful.

 

No, only 24-36% is soluble material. The rest is insoluble cell wall.

Yeah I get that - my point is that with every grinder this is the same number

 

Yeah I get that - my point is that with every grinder this is the same number

Sorry, you lost me there?

 

Sorry, you lost me there?

I mean - a whole bean has a total soluble content of 24-36%, the grinder does not change this - right? Unless we are saying that by bashing up the beans into tinier pieces we expose more of this soluble content and that with bigger bits of bean it's just impossible to dissolve it as fully - even with "infinite" time.

 

Yeah I get that - my point is that with every grinder this is the same number

"your EY target is more driven by grind distribution than bean quality per se."

Different grinders have different grind distributions = not tasty at 19% ey plus ( bitter )

 

"your EY target is more driven by grind distribution than bean quality per se."

Different grinders have different grind distributions = not tasty at 19% ey plus ( bitter )

Because less tasty bits have been dissolved than would have been otherwise?

 

1.More even grind - more bits extract more evenly = tasty

2.Less even grind = some bits extract more , some bits extract less and to a bigger degree than 1

 

The question is :

Why does a 24-25% extraction shot/brew taste [most often] amazing via the EK43 but comparatively horrid via a Mythos 1/ Porlex / Uber grinder ?

My best answer - the narrow particle distribution spread. Any 'fines' are similar in size to the 'rocks'

 

The drinks made with the EK43 exhibit more bitterness when under-extracted than when technically 'over-extracted' in conventional terms

 

[MENTION][/MENTION]

Any 'fines' are similar in size to the 'rocks'

But they're not - that's the latest thing from Perger or whatever, there are actually way more fines and they're absolutely tiny tiny and that's where all the flavour comes from - I feel as though there is no way you've missed this and therefore I've missed something here too.

 

But they're not - that's the latest thing from Perger or whatever, there are actually way more fines and they're absolutely tiny tiny and that's where all the flavour comes from - I feel as though there is no way you've missed this and therefore I've missed something here too.

So far supposition ?? I know he talks off it but is anything published yet

Plus his coffee is roasty

 

[MENTION][/MENTION]

But they're not - that's the latest thing from Perger or whatever, there are actually way more fines and they're absolutely tiny tiny and that's where all the flavour comes from - I feel as though there is no way you've missed this and therefore I've missed something here too.

x = fines

X = rocks

Robur :

[-x------------X--]

EK :

[-x----------X--]

small x is nearer large X with the EK

 

My understanding is that there are way more fines so you need less time on the brew, and somehow magically without trying the EK43 and it's largely even particle distribution size means that with spro it gushes through faster (so you grind finer *and* get more fines) and these two facts work together entirely by coincidence.

 

My understanding is that there are way more fines so you need less time on the brew, and somehow magically without trying the EK43 and it's largely even particle distribution size means that with spro it gushes through faster (so you grind finer *and* get more fines) and these two facts work together entirely by coincidence.

You are always brewing to the rocks, getting them to be tasty. With other grinders this means the 'fines' have gone way too far.

(in my head)

 

You are always brewing to the rocks, getting them to be tasty. With other grinders this means the 'fines' have gone way too far.

(in my head)

Is it possible to get those fines to go too far with the EK then? And get this bitterness - I've still not managed, even when I accidentally do 90s ristretto with new beans.*

[edit]

Also I can get behind this notion even more, because the even particles, the fast flow rate, the tightening of the grind, the faster the rocks then get brewed also.

[further edit]

*note: this tastes like arse, just not "bitter" in the sense I'd expect in my experience at coffee shops when they screw up - beans maybe?

 

Is it possible to get those fines to go too far with the EK then? And get this bitterness - I've still not managed, even when I accidentally do 90s ristretto with new beans.

[edit]

Also I can get behind this notion even more, because the even particles, the fast flow rate, the tightening of the grind, the faster the rocks then get brewed also.

Espresso wise - there is definitely an interaction between fines and rocks in terms of flow rates. Perhaps the actual shape of the particles is somehow different too (in the same way conics v flats )

I note you use beans which are not 'murdered' unlike Perger

Any references to bitterness in his blogs I take with a pinch of salt

 

I note you use beans which are not 'murdered' unlike Perger

Any references to bitterness in his blogs I take with a pinch of salt

Yeah... getting this feeling.

With some of my local beans it was impossible *not* to get bitter/roasty/nasty flavours, presumably because it's hard to do a low EY with the EK.

I feel as though I need to get a cheap Mazzer and spend some time with it to learn a bit more about the "how the other side does it"

 

Is it possible to get those fines to go too far with the EK then? And get this bitterness - I've still not managed, even when I accidentally do 90s ristretto with new beans.*

[edit]

Also I can get behind this notion even more, because the even particles, the fast flow rate, the tightening of the grind, the faster the rocks then get brewed also.

[further edit]

*note: this tastes like arse, just not "bitter" in the sense I'd expect in my experience at coffee shops when they screw up - beans maybe?

I would like to see the particle distribution info for the EK new coffee burrs, only ever seen old

 

I feel as though I need to get a cheap Mazzer and spend some time with it to learn a bit more about the "how the other side does it"

I rarely enjoy traditional espresso from the other side