Just reading around and stumble upon the decent espresso machine being built. Sounds like it ticks all the boxes. Anyone heard any more about it??
Lefteye
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Tinkering with colors and controls
We're finalizing how your interaction with the new group head controller will work. Here you can see me telling the machine to heat up, after which a closewise red LED fills the controller as it heats up to 100%. Next to do: an equivalent "cool down" animation. Every typical action you'd need to do with the tablet, you'll now also be able to do with with the controller on the group head.
-john
We're finalizing how your interaction with the new group head controller will work. Here you can see me telling the machine to heat up, after which a closewise red LED fills the controller as it heats up to 100%. Next to do: an equivalent "cool down" animation. Every typical action you'd need to do with the tablet, you'll now also be able to do with with the controller on the group head.
-john
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Put a lid on it
Our 2 liter ceramic water sits a few millimeters under the legs of the espresso machine. Not much can get in there, but an enterprising little insect could, depending on your climate.
Ben has designed a lid that can be 3D printed, that fits on the water tank. We're going to open source the design, so that others can tinker, as we'd like this lid to be as uncombersome as possible. Maybe, an hinged opening is possible, like the sous vide lid in the photo.
Besides people 3D printing it themselves, we're thinking of making these out of food-safe silicone.
Another idea: most water tanks that sit at room temperature eventually grow some algae. Someone suggested a fish tank UV light. I'm wondering if anyone has tried plunging one of these in your espresso water tank, to prevent anything from growing?
-john
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Hi,
I have a question on the upcoming decent scale.
I have an ITO/Leva! smart controller with BLE interface. So far it has been developed and tested to work exclusively with Skale2 only.
I asked the controller vendor and he is not sure so i am asking here - is the decent scale using exactly the same command set, protocol, api, etc so that can be safely assumed it will work with a controller developed for Skale2?
Thanks in advance!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have a question on the upcoming decent scale.
I have an ITO/Leva! smart controller with BLE interface. So far it has been developed and tested to work exclusively with Skale2 only.
I asked the controller vendor and he is not sure so i am asking here - is the decent scale using exactly the same command set, protocol, api, etc so that can be safely assumed it will work with a controller developed for Skale2?
Thanks in advance!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I asked the Skale folks if they were ok with my being compatible with them, and never got an answer.
So, I assumed that the answer was "not really, but we'd rather not create conflict and say so", and so the Decent Scale is "similar to the Skale API in functionality, but different implementation." I actually quite like the people being the Skale (Atomax, they're called) and we've gone "blood-tofu" eating in Taiwan (a bonding exercise) and if they prefer "no", I'm going to respect that.
Note that in the Decent Scale bluetooth implementation, I'm going to have flow rate (change/second) calculated on the scale itself, sent over bluetooth. I'm quite happy about out this. It removes bluetooth timing irregularities from messing with flow rate calculations, which is a problem with other bluetooth scales I've worked with.
There already is source code for talking to the Decent Scale, which you can download at https://decentespresso.com/downloads by grabbing the Android app, and looking at "bluetooth.tcl"
-john
So far all the drip covers are made out of some sort of metal.
What about making them out of a different material - wood or plastic?
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That doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Wood: no, because of water resistance. Plastic, no because of strength.
I've never seen a drip tray cover out of either material.
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Gaggia Tebe/Paros has a plastic drip tray & cover. Not that they're anywhere near the calibre of your machines of course.
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A problem with our Simple Scale
In the past few months, I've been receiving reports that our Simple Scale isn't able to weigh single beans. It took a bit of time to track down the problem, as not every scale had this problem, and a year ago, the problem didn't exist at all.
We found that the "load cell" that is in our scale has been going down in quality. We suspect the manufacturer of that part.
The simple scale used to be accurate and fast, but recently it's been really not able to count single beans (0.1g increments) when there's 10g or more on the scale. Since that's a typical use for our scale, that's a quite bad development.
We challenged the company that makes the scale for us, and made them videos of tests we needed them to pass, which were failing now. They agreed with us that the load cells were at fault and found another manufacturer, slightly more expensive. They built 100 scales for us, which we've now tested, and the new load cells look good.
If you've bought a Simple Scale https://decentespresso.com/scale from us and found that it doesn't handle 0.1g weight increments well, you probably have one of these bad scales.
If so, contact us https://decentespresso.com/contact I'll send you a replacement scale for free.
Note that most older Simple Scales are likely OK, as they used to perform well.
To determine if you've got a problematic scale:
Again: sorry about the problems, and please get in contact if you've got a bad scale, so I can fix this.
-john
In the past few months, I've been receiving reports that our Simple Scale isn't able to weigh single beans. It took a bit of time to track down the problem, as not every scale had this problem, and a year ago, the problem didn't exist at all.
We found that the "load cell" that is in our scale has been going down in quality. We suspect the manufacturer of that part.
The simple scale used to be accurate and fast, but recently it's been really not able to count single beans (0.1g increments) when there's 10g or more on the scale. Since that's a typical use for our scale, that's a quite bad development.
We challenged the company that makes the scale for us, and made them videos of tests we needed them to pass, which were failing now. They agreed with us that the load cells were at fault and found another manufacturer, slightly more expensive. They built 100 scales for us, which we've now tested, and the new load cells look good.
If you've bought a Simple Scale https://decentespresso.com/scale from us and found that it doesn't handle 0.1g weight increments well, you probably have one of these bad scales.
If so, contact us https://decentespresso.com/contact I'll send you a replacement scale for free.
Note that most older Simple Scales are likely OK, as they used to perform well.
To determine if you've got a problematic scale:
put about 10g of beans in a paper cup, on the scale,
and then add beans one at a time.
you should see the weight increment in 0.1g steps
if adding several beans does not increase the weight, you've got a bad scale
note: beans can sometimes weigh less than 0.1g, so it can take 2 beans to increase the weight.
Again: sorry about the problems, and please get in contact if you've got a bad scale, so I can fix this.
-john
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Eye to eye coffee service
Celadon Coffee just posted a photo of their beautiful installation of two black DE1XL Decent Espresso machines.
I think this is the first cafe to deploy my goal of a conversation between clients and barista, possible because Joao and I designed this model to be very low profile. No Big Boiler Machine separates you from your guests.
I intended the countersink brack to hide all the tubes and wires, but also to lower the espresso machine further down, so you can make eye contact.
The form of the machine is intentionally minimalist, so that it effectively vanishes, with your eye instead drawn to the setting (such as their spectacular mural).
-john
https://www.instagram.com/celadon.coffee/
Edit: just received this photo of the cafe actually open, and you can see that they're tinkering a bit with the tablet stand, with different approaches on both machines.
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Decentspotting in Malaysia
One of my mechanical engineers, on vacation this week in Penang, Malaysia was "well chuffed" (that's a good thing) to see a Decent Espresso machine in the cafe he went to: Spacebar Coffee.
It definitely helped impress his wife that he'd made a good career choice, that's for sure.
Looking at older photos on the web, I see that the Decent replaced their two-group Faema E61 espresso machine. https://tinyurl.com/uvb9pln
Spacebar Coffee https://www.instagram.com/ome.space/ https://www.taufulou.com/ome-by-spacebar-coffee-penang/
-john
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One of my mechanical engineers, on vacation this week in Penang, Malaysia was "well chuffed" (that's a good thing) to see a Decent Espresso machine in the cafe he went to: Spacebar Coffee.
It definitely helped impress his wife that he'd made a good career choice, that's for sure.
Looking at older photos on the web, I see that the Decent replaced their two-group Faema E61 espresso machine. https://tinyurl.com/uvb9pln
Spacebar Coffee https://www.instagram.com/ome.space/ https://www.taufulou.com/ome-by-spacebar-coffee-penang/
-john
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Welded wire drip trays
Ten days ago, I posted a video comparing the two candidate designs for a new drip tray cover.
https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/28377-decent-espresso/page/110/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=703923&embedComment=703923&embedDo=findComment#comment-703923
I prefer the "lost wax" cast steel design. However, there is a real question of how well they can be hand-adjusted. Can we make successfully make a jig to guide the factory to do the adjusting well? What will it look like? Also, "lost wax" is a slow process, taking a minimum of 3 months. With this being a new design, and hand-adjusting, we should plan on it taking 4 to 5 months.
We'll have run out of drip tray covers long before then, so we need something that works well enough, now. Can't stop shipping espresso machines!
The welded wire design takes about 4 weeks to make, and with a bit more work, I think it'll be acceptable. We received photos of these samples today. The factory has ceramic drip tray samples from us, at two sizes, with different amounts of shrinkage. They recommend that they change the radius (the curve) on the covers, to make them fit the ceramic better. This is a well engaged supplier, making good suggestions, and their work looks to be of high quality. We also had the ends filed at an angle, with this latest sample.
Our plan is to ship these "welded wire" drip tray covers for the next 6 months, for the next 500 espresso machines. If the "lost wax" process turns out to work, and to make a superior object, we'll switch to that. Until then, we'll bank on both approaches.
-john
-john
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Ten days ago, I posted a video comparing the two candidate designs for a new drip tray cover.
https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/28377-decent-espresso/page/110/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=703923&embedComment=703923&embedDo=findComment#comment-703923
I prefer the "lost wax" cast steel design. However, there is a real question of how well they can be hand-adjusted. Can we make successfully make a jig to guide the factory to do the adjusting well? What will it look like? Also, "lost wax" is a slow process, taking a minimum of 3 months. With this being a new design, and hand-adjusting, we should plan on it taking 4 to 5 months.
We'll have run out of drip tray covers long before then, so we need something that works well enough, now. Can't stop shipping espresso machines!
The welded wire design takes about 4 weeks to make, and with a bit more work, I think it'll be acceptable. We received photos of these samples today. The factory has ceramic drip tray samples from us, at two sizes, with different amounts of shrinkage. They recommend that they change the radius (the curve) on the covers, to make them fit the ceramic better. This is a well engaged supplier, making good suggestions, and their work looks to be of high quality. We also had the ends filed at an angle, with this latest sample.
Our plan is to ship these "welded wire" drip tray covers for the next 6 months, for the next 500 espresso machines. If the "lost wax" process turns out to work, and to make a superior object, we'll switch to that. Until then, we'll bank on both approaches.
-john
-john
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The cost is prohibitive, you're looking at well into £300 per part printed. Works well for a single custom part for a luxury part, or for R&D, but not for production. We're a long way still from replacing traditional ways of making things.
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I guess it depends on volumes. We're 3D printing metal parts for aircraft cheaper than we can CNC them.
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Also depends greatly on the shape, and how complicated it is to print. Rounded shapes are generally slower. A drip tray cover is very complicated.
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Catering Kit Improvements
A little less than half the people who buy a Decent Espresso machine, buy the refill kit. It keeps the water topped up automatically, from either a pressurized water source, or from a water tank (such as store-bought mineral water).
We initially made 500 of the refill kits, so we're almost out of stock. That gives us a chance to revisit it, and see what we can improve.
MOUNTING BRACKET
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There's a screwed on mounting bracket, which allows you to:
- mount the kit to a vertical wall
- hook the kit to the back of the DE1
Of those two features, it's nice to be able to hook it to the back of the DE1, but I never found myself mounting the kit to a vertical wall. And the bracket design was not good when mounting upside down, such as for a coffee cart.
Our work-around was to take the cover off, and push screw through the feet, into the wood that we're mounting to. Besides being a lot of work, it was often inconvenient, if (for example) the position of the kit meant you couldn't get access to the screws holding the cover on. Not a great solution.
Alex developed a bracket that screws into the threads inside the feet, holding the kit in place. Two easily accessed screw holes then hold the thing in place. Also nice is that unless you over-tighten those four screws, you have vibration isolation through those rubber feet.
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We're going to keep the side bracket, and include it with the kit, but not screw it on by default. It's there if you want to hook the kit to the back of the DE1.
NOISE LEVEL
I wanted to reduce the noise as much as possible. By going to a new pump supplier, and a more expensive model, we were able to drop 13db, from 79db to 66db. That's a huge improvement, and very welcome in homes.
In the new firmware, coming out in January, the refill kit will automatically engage when you put your DE1 to sleep, so that you always have a full tank for the next morning. This also avoids having a refill while you're making your morning espresso.
WATER FLOW SPEED
The previous pump could lift 1 liter per minute of water. The newer model can do twice that, at 2 liters per minute. We've measured it, to make sure it really does.
WHEN?
These new refill kits will arrive in late January, and will be included with all plumbed in machines from that point on.
-john
A little less than half the people who buy a Decent Espresso machine, buy the refill kit. It keeps the water topped up automatically, from either a pressurized water source, or from a water tank (such as store-bought mineral water).
We initially made 500 of the refill kits, so we're almost out of stock. That gives us a chance to revisit it, and see what we can improve.
MOUNTING BRACKET
There's a screwed on mounting bracket, which allows you to:
- mount the kit to a vertical wall
- hook the kit to the back of the DE1
Of those two features, it's nice to be able to hook it to the back of the DE1, but I never found myself mounting the kit to a vertical wall. And the bracket design was not good when mounting upside down, such as for a coffee cart.
Our work-around was to take the cover off, and push screw through the feet, into the wood that we're mounting to. Besides being a lot of work, it was often inconvenient, if (for example) the position of the kit meant you couldn't get access to the screws holding the cover on. Not a great solution.
Alex developed a bracket that screws into the threads inside the feet, holding the kit in place. Two easily accessed screw holes then hold the thing in place. Also nice is that unless you over-tighten those four screws, you have vibration isolation through those rubber feet.
We're going to keep the side bracket, and include it with the kit, but not screw it on by default. It's there if you want to hook the kit to the back of the DE1.
NOISE LEVEL
I wanted to reduce the noise as much as possible. By going to a new pump supplier, and a more expensive model, we were able to drop 13db, from 79db to 66db. That's a huge improvement, and very welcome in homes.
In the new firmware, coming out in January, the refill kit will automatically engage when you put your DE1 to sleep, so that you always have a full tank for the next morning. This also avoids having a refill while you're making your morning espresso.
WATER FLOW SPEED
The previous pump could lift 1 liter per minute of water. The newer model can do twice that, at 2 liters per minute. We've measured it, to make sure it really does.
WHEN?
These new refill kits will arrive in late January, and will be included with all plumbed in machines from that point on.
-john
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Infrared vs In-Milk Temperature Readings
I've been wondering whether it's possible to reliable measure milk temperature while steaming, with an infrared thermometer pointed at our matte-black Decent milk jugs. This experiment (tried 3 times) shows that there is measurement lag, but it's repeatable and linear. So, it should be possible to have steam stop automatically, so that no in-milk thermometer is needed.
As this is a bluetooth-enabled infrared thermometer, the next step is to have the Decent tablet app talk to the infrared thermometer, and see if this works.
Note: this is my personal development beta machine, with firmware that is currently making uneven steam pressure. The Decent steam on released machines is a bit more even. ?
Attached is a spreadsheet of the results.
Here is the $40 bluetooth infrared thermometer I'm using:
https://www.amazon.com/HOLDPEAK-HP-985C-APP-Thermometer-Non-Contact-Temperature/dp/B07QKYLSS5/
It would be incredibly cool if one of the programmers who owns a Decent, tried talking to this infrared thermometer, to see if this idea works reliably.
If this does work, my eventual goal would be to have an infrared thermometer built into the Decent Espresso Machine, seeing the milk jug through a small hole in the mirrored front panel.
-john
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I've been wondering whether it's possible to reliable measure milk temperature while steaming, with an infrared thermometer pointed at our matte-black Decent milk jugs. This experiment (tried 3 times) shows that there is measurement lag, but it's repeatable and linear. So, it should be possible to have steam stop automatically, so that no in-milk thermometer is needed.
As this is a bluetooth-enabled infrared thermometer, the next step is to have the Decent tablet app talk to the infrared thermometer, and see if this works.
Note: this is my personal development beta machine, with firmware that is currently making uneven steam pressure. The Decent steam on released machines is a bit more even. ?
Attached is a spreadsheet of the results.
Here is the $40 bluetooth infrared thermometer I'm using:
https://www.amazon.com/HOLDPEAK-HP-985C-APP-Thermometer-Non-Contact-Temperature/dp/B07QKYLSS5/
It would be incredibly cool if one of the programmers who owns a Decent, tried talking to this infrared thermometer, to see if this idea works reliably.
If this does work, my eventual goal would be to have an infrared thermometer built into the Decent Espresso Machine, seeing the milk jug through a small hole in the mirrored front panel.
-john
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