[Like Medium Strong Coffee]

was sceptical that 0.5 degree either way, could make much of a difference to a beans characteristics......wrong!

What was the group head temperature then, relative to non-decaf please ? Did you mark up by 0.5 deg higher ?

 

[Denis S]

It's a sum of factors:

-grouphead/baskets are 54mm vs 58mm (the smaller the diameter the coarser you grind/taller the bed).

- flow in preinfusion (a gear pump can push more liters/min than a dipper/hx or a vibe pump).

- pressure in brew (2 springs that deliver 10-11 bar brew shots apply more force, thus more compression in the puck, keeping it tight, compared to a 8 bar 1 spring lever).

Headspace plays an important role too in grind size and how the shot behaves.

 

[4085]

@Like Medium Strong Coffee Depth of puck versus wider puck with less depth, but that is as far as my physics goes!

 

[4085]

@Like Medium Strong Coffee went from 92.5 to 93. It was nice at 92.5 but that extra half a degree just brought something orangey I think that I had not detected before

 

[Like Medium Strong Coffee]

Headspace plays an important role too in grind size and how the shot behaves.

Thanks Denis!

So, keeping everything except the dosage constant, what would happen to the notes and taste on the cup if we were to pull a shot on the stock double basket, say 15g vs the standard 18g? I understand that taste is relative and one may need to be a super taster to pick the difference. Just an academic question.

 

[Denis S]

you have to test it, I dont have the machine yet.

15 g dose is finer grind than 18g dose, unless the baskets take account for that and have different hole surface (normally they dont).

A finer grind is much prone to channeling, specially if the grinder is not the greatest, or good, and a finer grind has more surface to extract from, so you end up with higher extractions, that in some let's say medium to dark roasts are not something you want, unless you pull a bit shorter ratios then it's fine.

Maybe with 15g dose if you pull 32g out the aftertaste will be a bit off, spicy, biterish, dry, but if you pull 26 g out from a specific roast you will enjoy it more.

From 18g you might like 36 g out or even 40g cause of slower extraction and coarser grind.

Normally depending on grinder ofc (some grinds much much finer SSP for example) you want to play with higher doses or smaller doses. For darker roasts I get better results in higher doses instead of grinding really fine with small doses.

The shots made from 18-20g for robusta or darker roasts are more velvety, richer, and rounder overall. So I am a bit against smaller doses, depends on coffee, type, your taste. For my coffee I do like 17-18g doses but on 58mm with profiling.

17-18g on 58mm is not equivalent with 17-18g on 54mm, I dont know right now what the difference but for 45mm it was 12g equivalent to 20g on 58mm. I hope you understand what i'm trying to say with the last sentence.

54mm is more forgiving with smaller doses.

 

[MWJB]

A finer grind is much prone to channeling, specially if the grinder is not the greatest, or good, and a finer grind has more surface to extract from, so you end up with higher extractions,

It's worth bearing in mind, surface area has no mass and cannot be extracted. If you halve the average diameter of the particles you decrease the volume of the average sized particles to 1/8th.

 

[Like Medium Strong Coffee]

It's worth bearing in mind, surface area has no mass and cannot be extracted. If you halve the average diameter of the particles you decrease the volume of the average sized particles to 1/8th.

Thanks Mark!

????

Please keep it simple for an average Joe like me!

 

[Dallah]

Without getting drawn into the, excuse the language, ******* match on this thread it has highlighted to me that there seem to be fake accounts on the "pro" side of the argument. I have seen at least two accounts which have been created in the last few months and have only posted on this thread. It seems obvious to me that they have been created only to help feed the buzz around this machine, which if the topic was anything financial, would lead to serious repercussions

I don't know who is behind them and I wouldn't want to speculate but it might be worth the mods looking into it as this thread seems to descending from discourse into polemic at times.

Mods Note: We restored this post because the member concerned was speculating, without justification or evidence. See this post for an explanation

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=847360&embedComment=847360&embedDo=findComment

 

[Dallah]

Where did my post go? I sent the mods a PM that something was rotten in Denmark yesterday and it was ignored. So posted the content of that PM here on this thread and instant action to delete my post. Unfortunately I'm not surprised. I don't know what is happening here but I know I don't like it.

Mods Note: We restored this post because the member concerned posted more incorrect accusations of corruption after being asked not to.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=847360&embedComment=847360&embedDo=findComment

 

[Denis S]

It's worth bearing in mind, surface area has no mass and cannot be extracted. If you halve the average diameter of the particles you decrease the volume of the average sized particles to 1/8th.

I know you are smart and you understand stuff behind my words. I do not find it constructive to go into the deepest details of why or to explain everything.

Water can penetrate into a particle and wash at about 100 microns in. If you have a round particle with 200 microns diameter you can pretty much wash it entirely. But if you have a 300 micron round particle you can't. A rounder particle since it's bigger has more mass than a elongated/hair/straw like particle.

SSP burrs deliver elongated shaped particles, specially the unimodal ones that people love. A much finger grind that has more surface for the water to go easily in and wash entirely the mass of it, or the volume. The surface I am referring to here, is the exterior contour of the particle, not it's total mass/volume.

People get bored when I go into details, it's not helping anyone, or it's helping 1 people and the rest are scratching their head screaming, can we move over it?

 

[MW11]

People get bored when I go into details, it's not helping anyone, or it's helping 1 people and the rest are scratching their head screaming, can we move over it?

I was scratching my head 🤭

 

[MWJB]

I know you are smart and you understand stuff behind my words. I do not find it constructive to go into the deepest details of why or to explain everything.

Water can penetrate into a particle and wash at about 100 microns in. If you have a round particle with 200 microns diameter you can pretty much wash it entirely. But if you have a 300 micron round particle you can't. A rounder particle since it's bigger has more mass than a elongated/hair/straw like particle.

SSP burrs deliver elongated shaped particles, specially the unimodal ones that people love. A much finger grind that has more surface for the water to go easily in and wash entirely the mass of it, or the volume.

People get bored when I go into details, it's not helping anyone, or it's helping 1 people and the rest are scratching their head screaming, can we move over it?

I'm not that smart. It's just simple logic. The forum is a public discussion, may be helpful to others.

The 100 micron theory was shown to be wrong in 1992 (Zanoni).

You're largely repeating things you have heard, believing them in good faith, but nevertheless they are wrong. Believing wrong stuff isn't helpful for anyone.

What do you want, everyone to just tell you you're great? Not going to happen, I've learned loads by being wrong, it's how we move forward.

 

[Like Medium Strong Coffee]

I'm not that smart

Mark, if you aren't, people like us have no scope! 🤣

This forum is a great place to learn. I have learnt a lot within a few months.

Please keep the discussions rolling guys. However, please do try and elucidate technical jargons, where possible, in simpler terms for people like us.

Thanks!

 

[biggoldensun]

Hello,

I got the machine since Thursday. I upgraded from a Faema Faemina from 1958 , which I considered doing really good coffee. Boy, I was wrong. Today I finally managed to hit the sweat spot of this incredible, beautiful machine. And the espresso was unearthly good. I don't want to be too exaggerating, but that clearly was the best espresso I've had in my life so far. And I love to drink espresso, wherever I go. I am extremely jazzed by this machine, which is not doing an incredible job, but is a real looker.

Cheers

 

[DavecUK]

This forum is a great place to learn. I have learnt a lot within a few months.

Please keep the discussions rolling guys. However, please do try and elucidate technical jargons, where possible, in simpler terms for people like us.

I agree, the forum is a great place to learn...I learn new things every day and it helps me design and improve things. We all make mistakes and that's how we learn. No idea or discussion is stupid, they can all give a learning experience. I was doing some prototyping work with a manufacturer the other day and I suggested something, which didn't work at all....that goes hand in hand with the territory...but another idea of mine worked superbly and is being built on.

Sometimes it's hard to keep things simple and sometimes (mostly in the past) it was difficult to disagree whilst keeping it friendly...fortunately this forum has moved beyond that these days..I'm loving reading the discussions, the ideas and the different way people use stuff.

 

[DavecUK]

@biggoldensun good to see you on the forum....

 

[MWJB]

Mark, if you aren't, people like us have no scope! 🤣

This forum is a great place to learn. I have learnt a lot within a few months.

Please keep the discussions rolling guys. However, please do try and elucidate technical jargons, where possible, in simpler terms for people like us.

Thanks!

Grinding finer makes the lumps littler, when the lumps are littler the brew needs less water (less time for immersions) to extract the coffee, or can extract the coffee more with the same amount of water. Coffee extraction is transferring some of the mass of solid coffee into liquid.

The lumps are 3 dimensional, so if you half the average diameter, you get lumps 1/8th of the mass of the twice as coarse grinds, but extraction doesn't go up 8 times, only a little (relatively speaking).

 

[John Yossarian]

you have to test it, I dont have the machine yet.

15 g dose is finer grind than 18g dose, unless the baskets take account for that and have different hole surface (normally they dont).

A finer grind is much prone to channeling, specially if the grinder is not the greatest, or good, and a finer grind has more surface to extract from, so you end up with higher extractions, that in some let's say medium to dark roasts are not something you want, unless you pull a bit shorter ratios then it's fine.

Maybe with 15g dose if you pull 32g out the aftertaste will be a bit off, spicy, biterish, dry, but if you pull 26 g out from a specific roast you will enjoy it more.

From 18g you might like 36 g out or even 40g cause of slower extraction and coarser grind.

Normally depending on grinder ofc (some grinds much much finer SSP for example) you want to play with higher doses or smaller doses. For darker roasts I get better results in higher doses instead of grinding really fine with small doses.

The shots made from 18-20g for robusta or darker roasts are more velvety, richer, and rounder overall. So I am a bit against smaller doses, depends on coffee, type, your taste. For my coffee I do like 17-18g doses but on 58mm with profiling.

17-18g on 58mm is not equivalent with 17-18g on 54mm, I dont know right now what the difference but for 45mm it was 12g equivalent to 20g on 58mm. I hope you understand what i'm trying to say with the last sentence.

54mm is more forgiving with smaller doses.

Denis you are absolutely right. Thicker puck (filter cake) should be responsible for higher resistance, i.e. less permeability. This is why you can pull a shot with 54 mm basket with 15 g that you could not with 58 mm basket (you could of course but it would be gushing through). The permeability is directly proportional to the thickness of the cake and provided the size of the particles is the same 54 mm basket would give you higher resistance if you keep the same weight in both. This is stemming from the Darcy's law that @DavecUK has quoted on several occasions.

I cannot believe what a stepwise change in coffee extraction this machine has brought up. If there were a coffee machine innovation award this one surely must get it by miles.

 

[MW11]

Hello,

I got the machine since Thursday. I upgraded from a Faema Faemina from 1958 , which I considered doing really good coffee. Boy, I was wrong. Today I finally managed to hit the sweat spot of this incredible, beautiful machine. And the espresso was unearthly good. I don't want to be too exaggerating, but that clearly was the best espresso I've had in my life so far. And I love to drink espresso, wherever I go. I am extremely jazzed by this machine, which is not doing an incredible job, but is a real looker.

Cheers

Welcome to the forum and congrats on your machine!
finally someone talking about espresso 😍. Have you tried hot/iced americanos yet? What about the single basket? I saw people on HB talking about single basket shots using Alex Leva (same group head).