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Muppet Labs Inc
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So you ignore the impact the unrinsed filter has on the espresso? Surely, the answer would be to use an Able fine mesh filter cut down to size?
Yes ignore it, metal filter imparts it's own taste IMHO. And its meshing is not doing the same thing

I think a cut down aeroporess filter for espresso , unwashed , is the variable that's having the least impact in that process. It's surface area is small.
 

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Are you gonna pull the shot at 2-4 bar in extraction too?
Well was planning on lifting the lever and letting it do it's thing.

But it is a decent idea to pull a 3 or 4 bar flat shot too.

Unfortunately those are the only 2 options with the LR. Can't start the shot at 2 bar then increase to 4.
 

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Muppet Labs Inc
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Well was planning on lifting the lever and letting it do it's thing.

But it is a decent idea to pull a 3 or 4 bar flat shot too.

Unfortunately those are the only 2 options with the LR. Can't start the shot at 2 bar then increase to 4.
Couldn't remember what machine you had. For sure try 2 bar pi but this is where the difference in pressure profiling and flow profiling start.
 

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Couldn't remember what machine you had. For sure try 2 bar pi but this is where the difference in pressure profiling and flow profiling start.
Yeah it's not gonna be the same as Scott's shots. I don't have a refractometer either, so won't be measuring EY. Just interested to try it to see how it affects the taste.
 

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Re dry or wet filter: I rinsed and damp-dried my paper filters with a tea towel... pressing out that excess moisture. They behave as if dry, not hard to place at all.

btw, folks have tried all sorts of brands of coffee filter papers to experiment with this sandwich system... live a little!?

Re bars of pressure for preinfusion: if you are of the very firm tamping camp, you can preinfuse at higher pressure; if you are a very light tamper, higher bar preinfusions will lead to premature "leaking" (extracting, when you only want saturation).

Re sizing: use a pen or pencil to trace your basket onto the filter paper (or carefully use a spent puck?); cut the circle from the tracing line... and if you need to narrow the diameter, you have an even circle to work back from.

To me, & most of us who aren't in the coffee business, the idea is to use Rao's method as a guide or introduction... pressure profiling is the key, and we can really have fun playing with that & re-thinking what defines espresso. It isn't all about 9 bar & force anymore.
 

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Muppet Labs Inc
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Re dry or wet filter: I rinsed and damp-dried my paper filters with a tea towel... pressing out that excess moisture. They behave as if dry, not hard to place at all.

btw, folks have tried all sorts of brands of coffee filter papers to experiment with this sandwich system... live a little!?

Re bars of pressure for preinfusion: if you are of the very firm tamping camp, you can preinfuse at higher pressure; if you are a very light tamper, higher bar preinfusions will lead to premature "leaking" (extracting, when you only want saturation).

Re sizing: use a pen or pencil to trace your basket (or carefully use a dried spent puck?); cut the circle from the tracing line... and if you need to narrow the diameter, you have an even circle to work back from.

To me, & most of us who aren't in the coffee business, the idea is to use Rao's method as a guide or introduction... pressure profiling is the key, and we can really have fun playing with that & re-thinking what defines espresso. It isn't all about 9 bar & force anymore.
According to Rao, flow profiling is the key but I agree people should experiment with what they have and see what results you get.
 

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According to Rao, flow profiling is the key but I agree people should experiment with what they have and see what results you get.
Sorry, if I was misleading there... When I talk about "pressure profiling" that also includes flow profiling in my books; they work together (and by feel during the pull, as well as using gauge & timer to reference).☺
 

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Muppet Labs Inc
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Sorry, if I was misleading there... When I talk about "pressure profiling" that also includes flow profiling in my books; they work together (and by feel during the pull, as well as using gauge & timer to reference).☺
Some machines you can just pressure profile on, some you can flow profile on , some you can set sum if's to get them do what you want.

Machines deliver water at different flow rates , this can lead to a perceived difference in the cup ( i use perceived here as not everyone's cup or coffee benefits from it )
 

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Some machines you can just pressure profile on, some you can flow profile on , some you can set sum if's to get them do what you want.

Machines deliver water at different flow rates , this can lead to a perceived difference in the cup ( i use perceived here as not everyone's cup or coffee benefits from it )
I used a manual lever for this experiment... hence, could control all the variables... not restricted by machine settings. Less predictable are any human goofs I might add to the mix.?
 

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Masters of Disasters/Tenus Millus
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It does, indeed. And consequently, you get a silky, lighter creamy effect (in the crema), but lose that thick "fatty" type of viscosity. Still, it's not thin, it is just "silkier"... difficult to put into words! (For my taste preference, I use a modified approach... omitting filter papers, but still grinding finer, use a 20 to 30 second preinfusion/bloom at around 1.5 to 2 bar (holding at pressure before it can start to hint at sending a drop from the bottomless pf, followed by a gentle climb up to reach 6 to 7 bars, before tapering off pressure gradually towards latter part of shot. (1:2 ratio) It's a much longer extraction as a result, and really creates a delicious shot.)
Am I reading this right? You have 30 seconds of 2 bar pressure, without any drops?

And no over extraction in the cup?
 

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Bit Swisstified Just Now
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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
First attempt today. Nasty!

18g
15s preinfusion at 2bar
30s no pump
Extract to 37g at 3 bar

Ran fast.
Little mouthfeel.
Salty and maillardy

Definitely not nailed technique. Didn't bother refracting.

Need to understand technique better.
 
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Premium Member
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That is astonishing given that a classic Robur espresso yields between 19 and 21% and an EK espresso around 23/24% (I think).
These ranges of extraction seem very narrow...I'm not sure I have seen anyone trying to replicate a bloomed & paper filtered shot with a Robur?

First attempt today. Nasty!

18g
15s preinfusion at 2bar
30s no pump
Extract to 37g at 3 bar

Ran fast.
Little mouthfeel.
Salty and maillardy

Definitely not nailed technique. Didn't bother refracting.

Need to understand technique better.
How much finer did you grind over typical shot?
 

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Am I reading this right? You have 30 seconds of 2 bar pressure, without any drops?

And no over extraction in the cup?
Yes, no drops (if you get drops, need to use less pressure, or grind finer). Absolutely no over extraction in the cup.

20 second preinfusion, holding at 1.5 bar, then a 10 second dwell and I then begin to apply more pressure (overall 30 or so seconds before extraction begins, and then I slowly ramp up). I can see the hint of extraction beginning to show on the (bottomless) pf screen and this coincides with when I begin to apply more pressure.

*but I am doing this all manually; I drive it with a lever & pressure gauge... + a scale & timer☺
 

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Muppet Labs Inc
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Am I reading this right? You have 30 seconds of 2 bar pressure, without any drops?

And no over extraction in the cup?
Depends how much coffee ends up in the cup , if only 10 g goes in from a 20 g dose it will struggle to be over extracted , no matter how long it took to get first drops.

Not aiming this a you but i sometimes feel people mix up a strong cup or a bitter taste with " over extraction "
 

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Bit Swisstified Just Now
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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
MWJB said:
These ranges seen very narrow...
I should clarify... whilst I had my Robur on the bench and was refracting shots it seemed to me that tasty shots on the Robur topped out at an EY of 21. At that time (years ago now) the EK brethren were celebrating 23%+ tasty shots. Always happy to accept other folk achieved different outcomes but this was my tasted and measured experience.

MWJB said:
How much finer did you grind over typical shot?
My Ceado E92 doesn't have a scale so I'm not sure how best to provide a usable answer. I made two shots aiming to get a flow rate that looked like it wasn't gushing. The first was at the tightest I normally grind for a 6bar preinfused Shot. It ran way too fast. I then cranked the grind tighter by what i would normally consider a 'gross adjustment'. It still ran faster than I'd expected.

I definitely have not mastered the technique. I'm also unclear whether Rao uses a flat profile or a variable one. Much to look into still. Not least whether conical grinders have a natural EY ceiling because of grind distribution. I can't see what grinder Rao uses with the DE1Pro.
 

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EY ceilings have a lot of caveats. If the technique works, you should still see an increase in conical EY, maybe not to the same extent as with a flat (not sure now whether EK espresso yields are even a thing as Scott seems to hit high yelds with a range of flat burr grinders).

In the video you linked he says he's brewing at 2bar, and did away with a high pressure peak. From other pics of the day it was an EG-1, though Scott has a Forte with BG burrs.
 
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