Thanks. As a relatively new member to the forum I was blissfully unaware that this was quite a repetitive issue. I now see it as a potential snakepit when it comes to answers with a multitude of opinions being expressed. I suppose the question I should have asked is ' am I safe to use my tapwater in my machine on a daily basis' and seen what the responses would have been. All in good spirit, thanks to all who offered their opinions/advice. I have been "semi" converted. I think ...

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Thanks. As a relatively new member to the forum I was blissfully unaware that this was quite a repetitive issue. I now see it as a potential snakepit when it comes to answers with a multitude of opinions being expressed. I suppose the question I should have asked is ' am I safe to use my tapwater in my machine on a daily basis' and seen what the responses would have been. All in good spirit, thanks to all who offered their opinions/advice. I have been "semi" converted. I think ...

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It isn't just new members. It's quite natural to not want to learn to figure this stuff out for yourself. It's a headache at first and of very limited use. Most people just want to select a bottled water or assess their tap water and move on. The spreadsheet I created will allow them to do it themselves by just copying information. The only reason I bother with this stuff is because I remineralise distilled water and tried different compositions.

If you use the spreadsheet and put the average figures from the water report into it you'll know if it'll scale or not at your operating temps but "safety" is another issue and can additionally be related to the way you use the machine. No tap or bottled water is "scale free" or "safe" if, for example, you steam milk and never flush the service boiler.

Safety is another issue. I avoid chlorides like the plague but you might also be concerned about corrosion potential if the water is low in hardness and alkalinity.

The spreadsheet will only help you determine if you'll need to descale a brew boiler or HX path. It's probably good advice to flush and descale service boilers periodically depending on use.

 

Very useful, but is there any bottled water that is available in a UK supermarket that is not too soft to cause corrosion and not too hard to generate a scaling problem? I get the impression that there isn't

 

It's quite a subject but there are some links in this thread https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/25280-bottled-water-blends-for-brewed/page/8 which may be helpful.

Cost and availability varies from supermarket to supermarket. 👍

 

Maybe. Probably not. If you really want to know you can easily find the mineral compositions online and put them into the spreadsheet.

MWJB made a thread on bottled waters with a calculator for mixing those, also a sticky.

I'm going to add a page soon on remineralising water.

 

Horribly complex remineralisation calculator added.

Allows using a simple one or two concentrate mix targeting a Hardness and Alkalinity or it allows more complex use of multiple concentrates contributing to hardness and alkalinity.

 

Thanks. Wondering about using tap water (very hard) and diluting with deionised water collected from a de-humidifier.

 

@Geoff - Is it a general purpose dehumidifier or one specifically made to produce food grade water?

We have a dehumidifier to help with washing drying in the winter and window condensation. After seeing the state of the dust and gunk on the cooling fins/filter, no way would I use it for drinking from without boiling and filtering...

Apologies if it is a fancy food grade one, just never heard of that before for home use.

 

Do food grade ones even exist? If it's a standard dehumidifier no. Aside from dirt and bacteria and stuff the highly pure water may have come into contact with whatever metals and oils are in the dehumidifier.

 

Yes good point, probably got too many metals to drink. So it's back to bottled water or simply give up and de-scale at regular intervals

 

@Rob1 - I didn't think so either, but I don't know everything! You can always be surprised sometimes. 😉

 

Here is one that @MWJB constructed some time ago. It may need an update ?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/187vd8fjVQGCrvaoEz071BoSEOl-IY3rTl0-fZXLGx1w/edit#gid=963218475

 

Here is one that @MWJB constructed some time ago. It may need an update ?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/187vd8fjVQGCrvaoEz071BoSEOl-IY3rTl0-fZXLGx1w/edit#gid=963218475

Updated 23rd May 2020 (ammended the title, see tab for date).

Is there something I have missed?

 

Just in case anybody has used or saved the remineralisation page since I updated the spreadsheet, I found an error which should now be corrected. It would have only affected the calculations if the 'target' ion were above 1 as in the example of Calcium Citrate which has 3 Ca ions.

 

Hi, many thanks for taking the time to put this together. Please move if you want this posted elsewhere, I'm wondering what you guys would recommend if water has a high silica content ~40ppm and for use in espresso machine, giving how grim some shower doors look around here, I'm wanting to be careful with my new machine. The hardness here is really low 7.8 and alkalinity is 14ppm. Ignoring the silica, I think I'm going to have to remineralise according to the water calculator, just trying to get my head around it.

Here are some of the values for my water, I got the silica value from a council water report. Any help greatly appreciated.

		Joyce Road
Calcium		1.82
Magnesium		0.77
Sodium		8.00
Potassium		2.10
Iron		0.02
Bicarbonate		17.2
Carbonate		0.00
Sulfate		1.70
Chloride		5.80
Nitrate		0.48
Nitrite		0.002
Flouride		0.04
Total Alkalinity		14.8
Total Hardness		7.70

 

Hi, many thanks for taking the time to put this together. Please move if you want this posted elsewhere, I'm wondering what you guys would recommend if water has a high silica content ~40ppm and for use in espresso machine, giving how grim some shower doors look around here, I'm wanting to be careful with my new machine. The hardness here is really low 7.8 and alkalinity is 14ppm. Ignoring the silica, I think I'm going to have to remineralise according to the water calculator, just trying to get my head around it.

Here are some of the values for my water, I got the silica value from a council water report. Any help greatly appreciated.

It's probably not a good idea to use water with high silica, though Volvic is quite high (31.7) and people don't seem to have problems using that (I didn't for two years).

 

Spreadsheet updated on the 'Interactive Table' page to calculate the rate at which alkalinity and hardness will increase depending on an estimate of the amount of water lost to steam and boiler capacity.

 

Can I please ask a stupid question about water...

Question: is non scaling water also the same as the best water for flavour extraction from coffee?

The reason I ask such a stupid question, apart from the fact that I know nothing, is that I use a demineraliser filter for the water for my tea - It removes all disolved minerals.

I had been using this water initially for my coffee (via Mokka/stovetop)

I then saw a little inexpensive water filter just for coffee(peak) which stated it would filter the water not to remove all the minerals but to ensure just the right ones were in the water to make good coffee - and I am probably silly but I feel it did help me in brewing better coffee.

So - I am assuming the minerals that cause scale are the bog standard calcium carbonate and any magnesium carbonate that might be floating about in the water from the tap. Am I then correct in thinking that if you remove just the minerals that cause scaling deposits that you are also then creating water that is good for extracting / brewing coffee , it still has some minerals in it but those ones don't casue scaling?

or are the two waters different from each other.

See - I am confusing myself just typing this.

 

Can I please ask a stupid question about water...

Question: is non scaling water also the same as the best water for flavour extraction from coffee?

The reason I ask such a stupid question, apart from the fact that I know nothing, is that I use a demineraliser filter for the water for my tea - It removes all disolved minerals.

I had been using this water initially for my coffee (via Mokka/stovetop)

I then saw a little inexpensive water filter just for coffee(peak) which stated it would filter the water not to remove all the minerals but to ensure just the right ones were in the water to make good coffee - and I am probably silly but I feel it did help me in brewing better coffee.

So - I am assuming the minerals that cause scale are the bog standard calcium carbonate and any magnesium carbonate that might be floating about in the water from the tap. Am I then correct in thinking that if you remove just the minerals that cause scaling deposits that you are also then creating water that is good for extracting / brewing coffee , it still has some minerals in it but those ones don't casue scaling?

or are the two waters different from each other.

See - I am confusing myself just typing this.

So... Unfortunately not. Coffee likes minerals. Coffee machines don't. We all have those calculators etc because if we put UK tap water - with the exception of a a few places - our coffee machines won't last very long. Yes, we can descale, but that in itself can cause a lot of issues.

So, the consensus is to have a compromise. Have water with less minerals, and only add enough minerals to the point that it won't become an issue for the coffee machine itself. Some of us (myself included) will distil the water and then re-mineralise with Sodium Bicarbonate. That will mute some acidity, as well as act as a buffer so the distilled water won't damage the boilers.

For a Moka Pot, I wouldn't bother. Tap Water through a Brita filter is more than enough.

 

Some non scaling waters are horrible. Some scaling waters taste fine, especially with brighter coffee.

The less alkalinity you have the brighter your coffee will be...if you can't tame the brightness, try more alkalinity.

If your moka pot is steel, you're probably not going to suffer with corrosion, but I'd tend towards more alkalinity with an aluminium moka pot.

 

sorry - should have clarified - I am not concerned about my little mokka scaling, as I regularly treat it with a little simple vinegar, I am however, truley fascinated about the discussion being had in this thread about the various charts for reducing scale in coffee machines proper.

People have gone to a lot of effort to create, test and publish the tables, charts and spreadsheets kindly included in this thread.

I was trying to understand the calculations, the reasons behind it, and that is when my little brain piped up and said but does the work you put into managing the scaling, affect the taste of the coffee because you have altered the minerals, and alkalinity of the water, etc, and you have all kindly clarified things for me.

Thank-you very much @MWJB, @MediumRoastSteam, and @Rob1 for taking the time to help me understand what is happening and why.

Brilliantly insightful and useful as always👍

 

Thank-you very much

@MWJBand @Rob1 know what they are talking about. I just read what they write, trying to understand it all and then my brain fries. 😂

 

I inherited a Gaggia Classic a few weeks ago that reignited my interest and made me buy a Specialita. I've now decided a machine is next and think I'm going all in (as far as all in is concerned for me) and getting either a Technika V Profi or Profitec 600 but that debate can be had elsewhere, the issue is I'm petrified to use tap water now.... Would an Osmio Zero fix all my issues or would I still need to do other stuff too? I'm with Anglia water and my info is

Drinking water hardness for xxxxxxx

The water in your area is hard.

To help set your domestic appliances, the water hardness in different units is:
	271 mg/l (or parts per million)	:Calcium Carbonate
	108.4 mg/l (or parts per million)	:Calcium
	18.862 °C	egrees Clark
	27.1 °F	egrees French
	15.393 °dH	egrees German
	2.71 mmol/l	:Millimoles

thanks in advance.....

 

and getting either a Technika V Profi or Profitec 600 but that debate can be had elsewhere, the issue is I'm petrified to use tap water now.... Would an Osmio Zero fix all my issues or would I still need to do other stuff too

Ha! I'm glad you came to your senses before you even got your machine. Great stuff. Kudos to you for doing your homework.

Yes, the Osmio Zero will do you wonders, either run with the re-mineralisation cartridge OR remineralise yourself. Very simple to do with only sodium bicarbonate. That's what I do: I distil my water and add 100mg (yes, 0.1g of it to every litre. The easiest way to do this is to make a concentrate say, add 5g to 1L of water. That's your concentrate. That alone has a concentration of 5g/l. That's 5000mg/l. If you then add 20ml of that solution to a litre of water (using a syringe), your water will have (approx.) 100mg/l.

I've bitten the bullet and bought a 0.01g precision scale so I can work with less amounts of concentrate. (E.g.: I make a concentrate of 50ml of water by adding 0.5g of sodium bicarbonate). I then add 10ml per litre of water. 100mg/l is not set in stone, and regulates alkalinity. You can add more or less, say, 80mg/l to suit your taste, as it will mute acitity.

question: what makes you go for the Mechanika rather than the MaraX?

 

Thanks both and yep the offer on the Osmio had already caught my eye 😀

@MediumRoastSteam I was looking at the Technika rather than the Mechanika for the PID and the styling. For those two machines the £200 premium seems worth it. Technika versus Marax becomes a bit more tenuous, styling again, potential build quality, can be plumbed if I decide to and if I buy the ECM I don't think I'll wonder if I should have bought the Lelit. Is it worth £800 more then no, of course not, well not rationally at least. If I didn't have a 2 week old Mignon then I may have diverted funds but as I do that side can wait now. It "may" not be good enough for the ECM, I don't know, but it will be better than me plus that's possibly an easier upgrade than a machine would be.

I could say rotary versus vibe but now I'm even kidding myself. There is a bit of want rather than need tthough, I'll admit that much.....

 

I was looking at the Technika rather than the

Sorry, my mistake. Good point about being plumbed in. But I don't think you can plumb in the Pro-600 for the same reason.

I just wanted to be sure you understand the difference between HX and Dual Boiler, and a smart HX like the MaraX.

 

Thanks, I've read plenty on the differences but not used any in practice, apart from the single boiler of the Gaggia. My mind is not completely closed on some of the options available to me and I've been round and round many of the obvious contenders a number of times 😀

 

Check out on cooling flushes. If you are happy with that, then go for a traditional HX. If not, avoid it.

 

Just so everyone is aware....

The experimental feature on the second page is broken. I can't remember what I was thinking but the short of it is just keep the boiler fill level cell to 1000 (it shouldn't be there). At some point I'll update the links but I can't access the document right now to edit it.

 

This is brilliant, thank you for the time and energy involved. This is my current fixation, making move from copper to stainless steel boiler machinery

 

This is a great stuff; not that I will understand as I did these decades ago! Thank you

 

Hallo,

it was pointed out to me that Scottish water can be prone to being corrosive - I hadn't considered it, and was only worried about scaling. I have enquired Scottish Water about alkalinity. For now I have the below about my area (so not my specific postcode, unsure if this matters) which mostly covers hardness.

Can anybody please tell me, whilst I wait for the update, whether there's a risk of corrosion from using a machine (ss boilers) on such water for a few weeks while I figure things out? I would imagine not, but I don't want to assume first and regret later. If so, can anybody suggest some emergency bottled water that would neither scale nor corrode?

 

Hallo,

it was pointed out to me that Scottish water can be prone to being corrosive - I hadn't considered it, and was only worried about scaling. I have enquired Scottish Water about alkalinity. For now I have the below about my area (so not my specific postcode, unsure if this matters) which mostly covers hardness.

Can anybody please tell me, whilst I wait for the update, whether there's a risk of corrosion from using a machine (ss boilers) on such water for a few weeks while I figure things out? I would imagine not, but I don't want to assume first and regret later. If so, can anybody suggest some emergency bottled water that would neither scale nor corrode?

View attachment 54262

Lucky @Baffo. We had to spend nearly £350-£400 to get the water, which is provided to you on tap! Very nice.

 

@Baffo Absolutely no risk of corrosion at all.

 

Thanks Dave - you mean in general or for the few weeks?

 

There's not really a corrosion risk with steel even with distilled water. I think the only risk would be from dissolved CO2 in quite pure water and the presence of chlorides in tap/bottled water, especially in vapour, however even then you're probably taking many many years.