[sgman]

Hello

I have a brand new Sage SGP and a year old GCP. I have always ground beans on SGP 4 or 3 (burr setting at factory level) and pulled 17g to 34g espresso in 25-30 seconds with about one month-old roasted beans from a local place. Suddenly overnight the shots were coming out in 10-15 seconds. Now on SGP grind 1 it is about 15 seconds and I cannot seem to slow it down any more. I have tried tamping hard, light, it makes no difference. I use a purpose built WDT tool with 3d printer needles, a leveller and a tamp with usually high force and never had a problem until recently. Any suggestions? I am cautious about adjusting the internal burr setting on the SGP considering it is two months old now. Thank you

 

[larkim]

Well it's highly unlikely that the GCPro has suddenly become capable of a higher force of water through the puck, so the answer will almost certainly lie with sorting "something" out with the grinder.
The only caveat to that might be that it could be the case that the GCPro had a blockage which restricted flow and that was masking the fact that the coffee was being ground too coarsely.
Either way, you'll have to get the grinder to grind finer somehow; perhaps post in the grinder forums and you might get some better advice how to do that.

 

[Rincewind]

...or return it under Warranty if it's only 2 months old and you CBA fixing it.

 

[antonz44]

I had this recently on similar set up

1) are you attempting preinfusion by turning the pump on briefly then off again for a while before on again to pull the main shot? The release of pressure when you turn the pump off can suck up the puck and cause dreadful channeling

2) is this at least a medium roast? Lighter roasts seem to be really at the limit of the SGP especially as the beans get older

3) if the beans are inconsistently roasted, it's pretty hard to compensate for that, I tried and even adjusted the SGP top burrs but still wasn't really enough. I'd get maybe 1 in 4 shots pulling well, randomly, without changing anything about my prep etc. I eventually gave up, used the beans for filter coffee and bought some fresh beans from a well known/reputable roaster such as Rave.

4) how are you storing the beans? Airtight container in a dark cool place?

5) have you given the grinder a really good clean lately and checked there's nothing in the bottom of the hopper that shouldn't be there etc

 

[Bhodgson]

Kind of depends how the “months old beans“ have been stored. Beans of that age, could well just “go overnight“.

 

[shaun****]

does the output seem hotter than usual? this was the first symptom i noticed when the boiler thermostat broke on my classic.

 

[sgman]

I had this recently on similar set up

1) are you attempting preinfusion by turning the pump on briefly then off again for a while before on again to pull the main shot? The release of pressure when you turn the pump off can suck up the puck and cause dreadful channeling

2) is this at least a medium roast? Lighter roasts seem to be really at the limit of the SGP especially as the beans get older

3) if the beans are inconsistently roasted, it's pretty hard to compensate for that, I tried and even adjusted the SGP top burrs but still wasn't really enough. I'd get maybe 1 in 4 shots pulling well, randomly, without changing anything about my prep etc. I eventually gave up, used the beans for filter coffee and bought some fresh beans from a well known/reputable roaster such as Rave.

4) how are you storing the beans? Airtight container in a dark cool place?

5) have you given the grinder a really good clean lately and checked there's nothing in the bottom of the hopper that shouldn't be there etc

1. No preinfusion

2. Medium roast yes. Usually use a slightly darker one so maybe that is it...

3. I will try different beans but this is the second bag (different types) where I have had this problem

4. Yes

5. Cleaned it out thoroughly today which may have helped very slightly but not enough unfortunately

 

[sgman]

does the output seem hotter than usual? this was the first symptom i noticed when the boiler thermostat broke on my classic.

No it is the same so hopefully not a fault of the gaggia which is my fear

 

[Stox]

Far more likely to be an issue with the SGP grinder than the espresso machine. A speck of ground coffee or chaff between the burr carrier and the grinder body would be enough to throw the grinder setting to give the results you're seeing and it may even be there is a crack in the grinder body that opens up under load. It's only plastic.
Are you purging the grinder between shots and/or changing grind settings? - the SGP retention is fairly high so you could easily be getting a few grams out from the previous grind so you need to weigh the output to make sure you're getting what you expected.

If possible I would send back the grinder for a refund put it towards something better like a Niche or DF64.

 

[Bhodgson]

does the output seem hotter than usual? this was the first symptom i noticed when the boiler thermostat broke on my classic.

wouldn’t that just increase water temp, but not flow rate?

 

[Bhodgson]

Far more likely to be an issue with the SGP grinder than the espresso machine. A speck of ground coffee or chaff between the burr carrier and the grinder body would be enough to throw the grinder setting to give the results you're seeing and it may even be there is a crack in the grinder body that opens up under load. It's only plastic.
Are you purging the grinder between shots and/or changing grind settings? - the SGP retention is fairly high so you could easily be getting a few grams out from the previous grind so you need to weigh the output to make sure you're getting what you expected.

If possible I would send back the grinder for a refund put it towards something better like a Niche or DF64.

Indeed @Stox . 100% on needing a proper espresso grinder. The SGP is at best flaky for espresso. Unless you use the pressurised basket, with the GC.

now I don’t suppose the OP is using the pressurised system, and the rubber grommet has become dislodged, are they.

 

[larkim]

Whilst the SGP might not be ideal, its a bit harsh advice to be saying "send it back and get a proper one" or that it's not "proper", surely? You might not be able to get competition quality espresso out from the SGP / GC combo, but it should still produce "ok" shots at worst, even without resorting to the pressurised baskets. A quick google suggests plenty of people make that work for themselves.

 

[larkim]

Is the upper burr adjustment as detailed on page 16 of this manual available for your SGP? This might produce the finer grind you are looking for.

https://www.sageappliances.com/content/dam/sage/ie/en/assets/miscellaneous/instruction-manual/coffee-grinders/BCG820-instruction-manual.pdf

 

[antonz44]

I'd try different beans to rule that out before deciding it's fault of the grinder, even if just a £3-4 supermarket dark roast bag or whatever.

Kind of depends how the “months old beans“ have been stored. Beans of that age, could well just “go overnight“.

For me this seems the most likely issue here and obviously quite easy to rule out

 

[Bhodgson]

Whilst the SGP might not be ideal, its a bit harsh advice to be saying "send it back and get a proper one" or that it's not "proper", surely? You might not be able to get competition quality espresso out from the SGP / GC combo, but it should still produce "ok" shots at worst, even without resorting to the pressurised baskets. A quick google suggests plenty of people make that work for themselves.

The SGP isn’t capable as a pure espresso grinder. Being able to grind the odd bean roast, doesn’t cut its like buying a road car that only works on the occasional road.
im sorry. I see so many people totally conned by the claims I see from sellers.
now if you're happy with the pressurised Gaggia basckets, that’s fine. But that’s the only way you can get any use out of this grinder.

honesty, can be upsetting. But not as upsetting as paying $200+ for a grinder that’s not up to the task. And
let’s face it. A second hand MC2, at half the price, knocks it into a cocked hat.

now we can pretend all is well, to avoid upsetting the owner, or we can be honest.
are we here to inform or placate?

 

[antonz44]

The SGP isn’t capable as a pure espresso grinder. Being able to grind the odd bean roast, doesn’t cut its like buying a road car that only works on the occasional road.

I appreciate this is said with the intention of avoiding any disappointment but I do think some people don't necessarily agree with you, such as this person who's written a detailed but qualified positive review after a claimed 5 years of happy daily use:

https://coffeeblog.co.uk/sage-smart-grinder-pro-review-3/

For me, there are sound reasons that someone might go for a (imo) reasonable starter all-rounder like the SGP rather than something around the same price point that's 1) used and 2) might not be capable for also doing coarse grinds for filter coffee here and there as well, which I would argue could be contrary to the comparison of an SGP to a car that can't go on different roads - SGP can go down the French press road as well the espresso road, which might be more relevant for some people.

One example is living with a partner/flatmate who enjoys coffee but doesn't want to learn to use an espresso machine nor spend 20 minutes making an espresso every morning. Or if you yourself are of the "wake up 10mins before I have to leave the house" persuasion. Having a warranty can also be important for some people, including some sellers offering accidental damage protection insurance too.

In this particular case, the OP seems to have been enjoying satisfying coffee with this set up until something suddenly changed. I hope they are successful in getting back to the coffee they were previously enjoying, as I was when I had this issue after sacrificing my slightly aging beans to make SGP-ground filter press and switching to a fresher pack for espresso.

 

[larkim]

The SGP isn’t capable as a pure espresso grinder. Being able to grind the odd bean roast, doesn’t cut its like buying a road car that only works on the occasional road.
im sorry. I see so many people totally conned by the claims I see from sellers.
now if you're happy with the pressurised Gaggia basckets, that’s fine. But that’s the only way you can get any use out of this grinder.

honesty, can be upsetting. But not as upsetting as paying $200+ for a grinder that’s not up to the task. And
let’s face it. A second hand MC2, at half the price, knocks it into a cocked hat.

now we can pretend all is well, to avoid upsetting the owner, or we can be honest.
are we here to inform or placate?

A bit harsh and OTT. The OP has a grinder which has been delivering 1:2 ratio shots for a good while in a sensible pour time so by definition something about that grinder and bean combo has been working fine.
And as I posted, others have had perfectly acceptable SGP espresso. So this is a long way from "buying a road car that only works on the occasional road" and shouldn't bring a need to use the pressurised baskets.
Of course a better grinder is better, but you can't just dismiss a) the OPs existing experience and b) the experience of others that this combo can and does work for people.
Whilst he's not explicit about it in espresso terms, Hoffman even recommends it above the MC2 in his £250 espresso setup video.

(I'm assuming I've got the right model comparison there!)
But mainly it is about tone.
The OP's question was "why has my grinder / espresso machine combo which was working fine by all accounts suddenly stopped working". Not "please give me advice on why my grinder / machine combo is bad and could be improved". Let's provide advice which is practical to help solve the problem and if we've exhausted all potential options (e.g. changing upper burr, trying different beans) then we might be on to the "we've exhausted all potentials with your equipment, here's some suggestions for a different setup".

 

[Bhodgson]

A bit harsh and OTT. The OP has a grinder which has been delivering 1:2 ratio shots for a good while in a sensible pour time so by definition something about that grinder and bean combo has been working fine.
And as I posted, others have had perfectly acceptable SGP espresso. So this is a long way from "buying a road car that only works on the occasional road" and shouldn't bring a need to use the pressurised baskets.
Of course a better grinder is better, but you can't just dismiss a) the OPs existing experience and b) the experience of others that this combo can and does work for people.
Whilst he's not explicit about it in espresso terms, Hoffman even recommends it above the MC2 in his £250 espresso setup video.

(I'm assuming I've got the right model comparison there!)
But mainly it is about tone.
The OP's question was "why has my grinder / espresso machine combo which was working fine by all accounts suddenly stopped working". Not "please give me advice on why my grinder / machine combo is bad and could be improved". Let's provide advice which is practical to help solve the problem and if we've exhausted all potential options (e.g. changing upper burr, trying different beans) then we might be on to the "we've exhausted all potentials with your equipment, here's some suggestions for a different setup".

Please don’t try to police my posts. I wouldn’t do it to yours.
Anyway. Admin are more than capable.

plus there’s always the ignore button.

 

[larkim]

You make a valuable and knowledgeable contribution so no plans to ignore, nor to police (though if my choice of phrasing comes across that way then I'll take another look and see if I can adjust it).

Just pointing out that firstly I disagree with your conclusion that the SGP is a grinder which isn't up to the task (with some evidence to support that) and secondly pointing out that in the context of this thread it would be great to hear from the OP to discover whether they have tried some of the potential solutions to fix their issue rather than descend into a "get a better grinder" discussion. "Get a better grinder" works fine when someone rocks up saying "why can't I get a 25s pour with my blade grinder" etc, but based on the evidence I've linked to dismissing the SGP as non-usable in this context strikes me as being poor advice and probably unhelpful if the OP doesn't have the intent to drop some cash on a new grinder.
I will say, as someone who resisted the "good grinder" option for a while that I 100% agree that using a well reviewed, espresso capable grinder is a must to get good drinks so I don't disagree with the logic, but in the setup that the OP has the best advice as a first port of call is to trouble shoot first as a "free" option.

 

[Bhodgson]

You make a valuable and knowledgeable contribution so no plans to ignore, nor to police (though if my choice of phrasing comes across that way then I'll take another look and see if I can adjust it).

Just pointing out that firstly I disagree with your conclusion that the SGP is a grinder which isn't up to the task (with some evidence to support that) and secondly pointing out that in the context of this thread it would be great to hear from the OP to discover whether they have tried some of the potential solutions to fix their issue rather than descend into a "get a better grinder" discussion. "Get a better grinder" works fine when someone rocks up saying "why can't I get a 25s pour with my blade grinder" etc, but based on the evidence I've linked to dismissing the SGP as non-usable in this context strikes me as being poor advice and probably unhelpful if the OP doesn't have the intent to drop some cash on a new grinder.
I will say, as someone who resisted the "good grinder" option for a while that I 100% agree that using a well reviewed, espresso capable grinder is a must to get good drinks so I don't disagree with the logic, but in the setup that the OP has the best advice as a first port of call is to trouble shoot first as a "free" option.

yes. You’ve made that clear in multipal threads. Threads, incidentally, you’re often only involved in, to point out you disagree with me.