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richwade80 said:
Just an update on this.

The machine is fine. It's the Barista which is the problem... sort of.

I researched milk temperatures on the forum and figured out I was steaming for too long. The temperature on the thermometer rises quite a lot after steaming has finished.

I needed to 'pull out sooner' so to speak. I now stop at around 120F

The thing that was confusing is that using the same pitcher and thermometer on a Gaggia Classic resulted in a cooler drink. I expect that steaming/heating probably took longer on the classic, (and I used to make larger drinks) so probably less apparent gain in temperature after steaming.
By all means, keep the thermometer if you want, but also train your hand to know when to stop by temperature. For instance, hold the pitcher and keep your fingers touching the lower side or bottom of the jug. When it feels too hot to touch, close the steam tap. Clean it with a wet cloth, tap tap the jug, swirl a few times and pour.

I find milk thermometers just get on the way. It's a good aid, but in my case I used it a couple of times and find that my own on skin sensors are more practical and more responsive than the mechanical one.
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
Jony said:
I think I am at 60c so you are at 48c that's not hot, I have I have always used finger temp, I'm done in

I stop at 120 and it keeps going on the counter to about 140 to 150! So maybe we aren't so far apart in the end.

I use full fat Waitrose organic tree hugging mega expensive milk. I don't know how much exactly (120ml I guess). Takes probably 40s though with standard two hole wand.

I imagine using your hand is like having your fingerprints burnt off.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
richwade80 said:
I stop at 120 and it keeps going on the counter to about 140 to 150! So maybe we aren't so far apart in the end.

I use full fat Waitrose organic tree hugging mega expensive milk. I don't know how much exactly (120ml I guess). Takes probably 40s though with standard two hole wand.

I imagine using your hand is like having your fingerprints burnt off.
When I view my last post on Tapatalk it doesn't show up. Hopefully this will show it properly. The website is fine.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
Update on this.

I ditched my milk thermometer and now just burn myself to know when to stop. The result is a far nicer cup, which I hold with bandaged hands...

I also got a group thermometer. To my surprise, the group does seem to run hot. It would get to 97 or probably 98 if left long enough.

To cool this down to 94 or so, I've found that you'd have to do something significant - basically make a drink to drop the resting temp by 2 degrees.

The flush and go method is confusing, as it doesn't appear to make much difference, with a short flush at least.

If the group is at 96 before the cooling flush (to the end of flash boiling), the temp spikes by about 2 degrees before dropping, but only back to where it was really. The temp during the shot is also then 2 degrees higher, but does fall by 1 degree during the length of the shot.

If the group is at 92 (my current preferred spot) then you get a shorter flush to the end of flash boiling. The performance is similar though. The temp during the shot would be 94 to 93.

So it seems that machine does run hot to me. This would be okay if plumbed in, but is a pain if on your on bottles.

It's okay if you catch the machine at the right temp while it's heating up.

I've copied the graphs from the other thread here in case it's useful.

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104b712781ce831e92e6e9f28d7cdf9c.jpg


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Hey Rich - nice to see you getting scientific with brew temp on your HX ;-)

My experience was that the group should run hotter at idle than brew as yours is - up to 98 or more after a long idle.

This was to warm the cooler brew water after a flush. After a long idle I would need a slightly longer flush especially for darker roasts

For me it was only from 3rd shot onwards that group head temp at idle was less than desired brew temp at which point I moved to no flush and let the heat of the super heated water in the HX actually warm the group head during the shot - so the thermal effect was reversed.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
kennyboy993 said:
Hey Rich - nice to see you getting scientific with brew temp on your HX ;-)

My experience was that the group should run hotter at idle than brew as yours is - up to 98 or more after a long idle.

This was to warm the cooler brew water after a flush. After a long idle I would need a slightly longer flush especially for darker roasts

For me it was only from 3rd shot onwards that group head temp at idle was less than desired brew temp at which point I moved to no flush and let the heat of the super heated water in the HX actually warm the group head during the shot - so the thermal effect was reversed.
Thanks Kenny

I will consider deciphering what you just wrote over a few pints and a bottle of wine.

There's always something to learn. It's why I like this hobby more than most others.
 
I had a couple of questions about the charts above.

1)

If the flush max and shot max are around the same (or within 1 deg C) then the flush appears to make little difference. why would you bother ?

I suppose i would've expected the flush part to run 100+ and the the subsequent shot to run cooler.

2)

How important is the Shot max/min vs the average temp over the extraction? Does a high temp for the first few seconds matter if the temperature drops off for the rest of the shot.

Thank you!
 
I've been playing with boiler pressure and group-head temps on my ECM Technika Profi IV for a little while now, having bought the Coffee Sensor Pro, which is pretty much the same as "Eric's Thermometer".

On the pressure, I dropped mine to peak at 1.1-bar, but found it degraded steam for milk, so bumped it up to max at about 1.25 - 1.3.

Despite reading thousands of words on the topic, I am still confused as to what the group head reading is telling me. If you read Eric's instructions, on a flush-n-go machine like mine, he says the temperature will read a couple of degrees lower than the temp of the water presented to the puck. In my mind, that means if it settles down at 94C, the water hitting the puck will be 96C.

However, I've read other comments from people who insist the temps register two degrees higher than the water hitting the puck... and ones using a different machine who say the two converge after 15-seconds, so if it reads 94C 15 seconds in, that is the temp of the water hitting the puck.

In partial answer to

1)

If the flush max and shot max are around the same (or within 1 deg C) then the flush appears to make little difference. why would you bother ?

I suppose i would've expected the flush part to run 100+ and the the subsequent shot to run cooler.

2)

How important is the Shot max/min vs the average temp over the extraction? Does a high temp for the first few seconds matter if the temperature drops off for the rest of the shot.
1. The thing to remember is that when sitting idle, the thermometer is measuring the group head temp, but after water has been flowing for a few seconds, it is measuring water temp.

The flush and pulling the shot use different water volumes and so the temp change is very different... therefore will produce very different curves. A 30-second flush will drop temps significantly, whereas a 30-second shot will not. Without the flush, the water temps would stay much higher in pulling the shot, because back pressure restricts water flow. The flush has also drawn cooler water into the HX. The 4+Kgs of brass in the group head also flattens things out.

2. This is where there is debate as outlined above. The water initially hitting the puck will be instantly cooled, because the puck will be at a much lower temp. After 15 seconds my temp stabilises and it makes sense to me that the puck has come up to temp and the group head has stabilised the water temp.... hence I suspect the temp of the water hitting the puck has converged with the group head measurement.

Now who has both a Scace and a Coffee Sensor Pro to give me data?
 
Despite reading thousands of words on the topic, I am still confused as to what the group head reading is telling me. If you read Eric's instructions, on a flush-n-go machine like mine, he says the temperature will read a couple of degrees lower than the temp of the water presented to the puck. In my mind, that means if it settles down at 94C, the water hitting the puck will be 96C.
I use Eric's thermometer on the Mechanika Profi IV. My machine (at around 1.25) requires very little flushing. So much so that I often over-flush, and have the painful wait for it to recover...it's a very stable machine, but this stability seems to work against it if I cool it down too much as it wants to stay at that temperature.

Anyway, there seems to be no real consensus. Probably in part down to the thermometers being quite poor in quality. For my machine, I aim for the thermometer to read 96-96.5c during the shot. That means there'll be a high of 97~ at the start, very quickly settling to a stable ~96. I take this to mean that my machine with my thermometer have a ~3c offset, since I'd expect 93c to be where most beans are happiest.
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
Just to add, if your steam power drops off at lower pressures you can always get the other steam wand tips. There's plenty of pressure there even at 1.0bar if you want.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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