They certainly have some interesting products in the pipeline yes. YouTube videos are well worth watching if you haven't already.

 

Thanks for pointing out those. Looks even more promising. Steam from a tiny form!

 

I'm watching this very closely. An interesting product for sure.

 

If it does what it says then the rocket R60v will be in trouble

 

If it does what it says then the rocket R60v will be in trouble

Not shiny enough

 

Look like really clever products. Not sure I want to operate my machine with an iPad though.

 

Look like really clever products. Not sure I want to operate my machine with an iPad though.

Yes I get that this takes the art out but if I can get consistantly good results on a machine that may come in under £850 then that's appealing.

 

Just spotted this on the front page and chuckled a little bit in hindsight

 

It'd be amazing to see them bring it in at that price. Though I know little about that sort of thing, to me, it just seems unlikely they will.

 

Yes I get that this takes the art out but if I can get consistantly good results on a machine that may come in under £850 then that's appealing.

The art? The art of lifting up a little metal lever that actuates a switch?

 

Yes I get that this takes the art out but if I can get consistantly good results on a machine that may come in under £850 then that's appealing.

I agree if it gets results - and at that price - then brilliant. I'm not fussy about the manual process, just give me a good coffee thanks!

The thing is though, some things are just best left to hardware/mechanical operation. For example, they have a control on the app for turning on and off the steam - I just really don't want to rely on a tablet for that; tapping away at a screen, or laggy interface, or trying to dismiss a message notification while my milk gets ruined.

I also wouldn't want to have to boot up an iPad in order to simply make an espresso. I get that a tablet is good for altering complex settings - it's perfectly appropriate there - open the app to change a profile, or dial in a pressure etc. But once that's done, just give me hardware controls to start and stop the thing.

It may be the only way they can get the machine in at that price though: offloading all processing and control to the iPad, but it still comes at a cost to the consumer. On-going reliance on a tablet and software isn't cost free, and obsolescence is a risk.

If they do go down that route, I just hope they use open standards/apis so other control options are open to people. 3rd parties/enthusiasts could make hardware controls, or raspberrypi alternatives for example.

Jim

 

The art? The art of lifting up a little metal lever that actuates a switch?

Yeah, it's less about art, and more just tactic-feedback and mechanical operation. Things you can do without looking, and rely on to have immediate effect.

 

Yes I get that this takes the art out but if I can get consistantly good results on a machine that may come in under £850 then that's appealing.

£850 is that right, considering the strong money for Decent-Doser.

 

£850 is that right, considering the strong money for Decent-Doser.

Yeah, seems unrealistic to me. I think that will ramp up pretty quickly when they get to full production costs, distribution, middlemen, retailer margins etc. I'd say double that is more like it.

I look forward to being wrong though.

 

I was guessing on the cost really as they seem to want to make it sub $1000 I agree it would t surprise me if the cost soon went way up. It's good to see a novel approach though

 

I've just had a reply from the ceo of the company. The development seems pretty much on track and it's likely that they would ship to the uk in August 2016. Noted that they have introduced a paddle version also

 

Look like really clever products. Not sure I want to operate my machine with an iPad though.

The touch tablet shows you what is going on with your shot, namely flow rate, water temperature, current pressure. It also lets you draw (with your finger) the pressure profile you want to use. You can also easily change water temperature, hot water temperature (for Americanos) and steam pressure.

For people who really, really hate the idea of a tablet on an espresso machine with a tablet on it, I'm working on a paddle controller, that will let you control real-time pressure and flow, as well as using it to actuate the steam and hot water.

I'm attaching an animation of the paddle idea. This design is a work in progress, and definitely not the final shape.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-EEiu1O8atrw/Vud2mkYOi5I/AAAAAAAABQs/eG9W5rfLd9oGi_cW7GVfVgTkFOWoN5sdA/w1600-h1148-no/460bbc8e-6f42-4169-84c5-0b30e098dba5.gif

 

Yeah, seems unrealistic to me. I think that will ramp up pretty quickly when they get to full production costs, distribution, middlemen, retailer margins etc. I'd say double that is more like it. I look forward to being wrong though.

You're absolutely right, we'd have to charge at least twice that if we were working through resellers and distributors, as each typically takes a 30% to 50% margin.

I really hate the idea of making a machine for £150, selling it to a distributor for £250 and the eventual customer paying £899 for it. There's no way to make a decent machine for that little money.

That's why we're only selling direct to consumer. That lets us spend £500 to make your machine, sell it to you for £999, and we make enough profit to both make something of quality, and support you in the case where you have any problems.

 

The thing is though, some things are just best left to hardware/mechanical operation. For example, they have a control on the app for turning on and off the steam - I just really don't want to rely on a tablet for that; tapping away at a screen, or laggy interface, or trying to dismiss a message notification while my milk gets ruined.

I also wouldn't want to have to boot up an iPad in order to simply make an espresso. I get that a tablet is good for altering complex settings - it's perfectly appropriate there - open the app to change a profile, or dial in a pressure etc. But once that's done, just give me hardware controls to start and stop the thing.

It may be the only way they can get the machine in at that price though: offloading all processing and control to the iPad, but it still comes at a cost to the consumer. On-going reliance on a tablet and software isn't cost free, and obsolescence is a risk.

If they do go down that route, I just hope they use open standards/apis so other control options are open to people. 3rd parties/enthusiasts could make hardware controls, or raspberrypi alternatives for example.

Jim

As I'm the tablet programmer, hopefully I can make the UI not "laggy" and so far that's the case. I'm also playing with the idea of a count down timer on the steam, as well as screaming STOP (ha!) at the tablet to stop the steam (assuming working voice recognition).

That being said, I did mention the paddle controller for those that don't want a UI. However, if you don't mind UI, I have one more permutation to offer you: the paddle and a small phone-sized (included) Android device that you use for changing settings, but which otherwise sits in a drawer. You use the manual controls to make coffee.

As to open APIs, yes, this machine is specifically targeted at maker-types, both software and hardware hackers. The gui is open source, but there's also an HTTP/REST interface if you want to make your own gui. In principle, it should be "not that hard" to add new bluetooth controls, much like how musicians use MIDI controllers.

 

£850 is that right, considering the strong money for Decent-Doser.

I do unfortunately need to be clear that the 220V version will be more expensive than the USA 110V version (currently looking at £999). The reason is that we're putting much beefier heaters and pumps into that model, because we *can*. That means more powerful steam, because at 110V physics is not really on your side, whereas at 220V there's enough juice to make decent on demand steam. Also, faster startup time on 220V.

Just a note that this is not an anti-Brit bias: the UK/EU machine will be just plain better. I'm Britain-born and lived in London for years before launching into this little adventure.

 

Thanks for all the clarification above. Really looking forward to this one.

 

Steam on a timer ? .... What if the milk is ready before or after the timer runs down ? And you would need a button for purging the wand before steaming and for cleaning .... And a button for using steam to warm a cup.

some things are easier with a mechanical switch/knob especially seeing that steaming is a 2 handed job and having a big knob or lever right by your wand is a lot easier and safer than trying to operate an iPad to turn the milk on and off whilst trying to hold the milk in the right position

with out meaning to be insulting, as I am truly interested in this venture, but do you use a manual machine yourself as some of the ideas seem to originate from a designers point of view rather than a users perspective ?

 

Steam on a timer ? .... What if the milk is ready before or after the timer runs down ? And you would need a button for purging the wand before steaming and for cleaning .... And a button for using steam to warm a cup.some things are easier with a mechanical switch/knob especially seeing that steaming is a 2 handed job and having a big knob or lever right by your wand is a lot easier and safer than trying to operate an iPad to turn the milk on and off whilst trying to hold the milk in the right position

To quickly answer your question: the screen presents large rectangular "buttons" that turn functions on/off, just as they do on traditional espresso machines.

I think there's a general worry about having to "operate an iPad" that I could do well to clear up. The tablet runs Android, is supplied ready-to-go and boots directly into the controlling application. You don't need to interact with the Android operating system.

I'm working on two ways of using this machine.

The "simple mode" presents 3 huge rectangles on screen that you tap to turn on or off. In this way, they operate exactly like on/off buttons on traditional espresso machine.

This is what this "simple mode" looks like:

those big rectangles measure something like 2" x 3", and should be easy to tap, even if you're busy steaming milk. My GS/3 has a 1cm button to turn steam off, which is considerably harder to hit.

You tap the icon to start a function, and tap it again to stop.

The optional "advanced mode" is getting rolled out progressively and the design is still being refined. Here is what the STEAM page looks like:

the idea is to (a) guide you to choose the amount of milk you want for the kind of drink you've selected (b) let you adjust steam pressure and © work with a bluetooth thermometer to automatically stop steaming when the milk reaches the desired temperature.

Each major function (espresso/steam/hot water) has a screen like this. You can choose to use this "Advanced mode" or stay with the "Simple mode" where the machine works more like a traditional machine.

with out meaning to be insulting, as I am truly interested in this venture, but do you use a manual machine yourself as some of the ideas seem to originate from a designers point of view rather than a users perspective ?

No insult taken. <grin></grin>

At home I have a La Marzocco GS/3 and at the office we have a two group E61 "no-tech" machine. The coffee quality of my GS/3 is what we're aiming for, but with pressure profiling added, and more transparency as to what's going on during a shot.

As to the "steam timer" idea, it's just that at the moment, an idea. However, if you consistently heat 200ml of milk up, it's likely that running steam for the same amount of time each day (say, 35 seconds) will produce milk heated more or less the same temperature.

Since we have shot timers and volumetric dosing for espresso, why can't we have an optional steam wand timer? It seems like the same principle to me.

-john

 

NOW PULLING SHOTS WITH THE NEW MACHINE

We finally put everything together today, and we're making shots. All components are "done" and we're now in "tuning", "lowering manufacturing cost", and "safety compliance". After that, we'll be making our final manufacturing choices.

Back in October, we built and demonstrated a prototype with all our ideas, but that machine cost us $2500 to build. In comparison, the machine that we built to make this espresso today cost us about $550 to make. We're getting close to hitting a manufacturing cost that will allow us to sell this machine directly to consumers at $999.

This is with Scott Rao's pressure profile of a slow ramp up to 8.4 bar for 10 seconds, then slow decrease to 4 bar until the end.

I wonder if we should move gently slope to 4 bar (it's pretty fast right now). Also, we're taking about 10 seconds to get to full pressure, is that perhaps too long?

19g in, 27g out, 30 seconds shot time, medium roast (Brazilian beans). Many thanks to @bloomsroastery http://www.blooms.com.hk/ for providing us with awesome beans.

93.5 celsius water temperature. Our maximum error over the shot was 1.5 celsius (under temperature), which we will be able to improve on over the next few weeks.

Is there anything you see in this video that you would comment on?

 

What do you see if any in the potential price differences from USA to UK ? Will the machines be the " same "

Can we have a clip to see how the profile is set , or displayed as it progresses ....

Cheers

 

What do you see if any in the potential price differences from USA to UK ? Will the machines be the " same "

Can we have a clip to see how the profile is set , or displayed as it progresses ....

from a couple of weeks ago

I do unfortunately need to be clear that the 220V version will be more expensive than the USA 110V version (currently looking at £999). The reason is that we're putting much beefier heaters and pumps into that model, because we *can*. That means more powerful steam, because at 110V physics is not really on your side, whereas at 220V there's enough juice to make decent on demand steam. Also, faster startup time on 220V.

Just a note that this is not an anti-Brit bias: the UK/EU machine will be just plain better. I'm Britain-born and lived in London for years before launching into this little adventure.