Barista Express vs. Barista Pro
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Interesting - how have you measured the temp and what reading are you getting?
I was measuring with a thermometer in the spout, getting a consistent 90-92 there. On the 2nd and 3rd pull. 1st was recording lower likely as the PF spout was taking some heat away. That was with the double wall basket in. The water in the cup was a nice 80.
I also ran a few shots with the double wall basket and now get 80c in the cup - although the 'flush' icon has lit up on the screen, asking for a cleaning cycle to be performed already. Not sure if that's normal? Only been a week.
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Why is it better to do the warming flushes with the single wall filters? Happy to do though would rather keep them in the box out of sight 
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So the sage customer service rep reached out to their technical team in regards to the temp on the BP vs BE. Answer below:
With all thermojet units: Barista Touch, Barista Pro, Bambino...
The temperature result of coffee will be dependent on the conditions set by user. We controlled the flow based on Coffee roasted freshness, selecting the correct grind size, adding enough coffee in the portafilter, tamping evenly. All these variables must exist on the thermojet products otherwise consumers WILL experience coffee not at the optimum temperature.
In regards to the cup warmer, group head and shower screen being warmer on the BE vs. BP:
This is because of thermocoil we use that has more mass and takes much longer to heat. This will then in turn radiate heat upward to the top of the unit. The newer thermojet units do not radiate heat because of the faster heat up times and are ONLY on when required.
Also the cleaning cycle should be required after 300 shots.
With all thermojet units: Barista Touch, Barista Pro, Bambino...
The temperature result of coffee will be dependent on the conditions set by user. We controlled the flow based on Coffee roasted freshness, selecting the correct grind size, adding enough coffee in the portafilter, tamping evenly. All these variables must exist on the thermojet products otherwise consumers WILL experience coffee not at the optimum temperature.
In regards to the cup warmer, group head and shower screen being warmer on the BE vs. BP:
This is because of thermocoil we use that has more mass and takes much longer to heat. This will then in turn radiate heat upward to the top of the unit. The newer thermojet units do not radiate heat because of the faster heat up times and are ONLY on when required.
Also the cleaning cycle should be required after 300 shots.
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Good info, thanks for sharing.
Makes sense - so the thermojet units can only be warmed by doing warming flushes, doesn't matter how long they have been on for as the thermojet is only active at shot pull time anyway.
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Makes sense - so the thermojet units can only be warmed by doing warming flushes, doesn't matter how long they have been on for as the thermojet is only active at shot pull time anyway.
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This makes sense. Hence why there is a slight issue with the recommendation for 19-22g which is not optimal for the size of basket.
I just got a great shot, good temp with 20.5g in the PF, this slowed things down and pulled the shot over 35 seconds. Very warm in the cup.
So to update this a new thermometer just arrived (I was having to use a milk thermometer before with dubious accuracy).
A few temp tests -
PF and dual wall single basket warmed in hot water prior.
1. first run/flush - 83 C measured coming out of the PF.
2. Run 2 86C
3. Run 3 92C
4. Run 4 92
5. Run 5 92.
You get the idea.
I think this confirms that the water is hitting the espresso at 93-94.
Changed to single wall basket
Run 6. 80.
Looks like the flow hypothesis was correct.
A few temp tests -
PF and dual wall single basket warmed in hot water prior.
1. first run/flush - 83 C measured coming out of the PF.
2. Run 2 86C
3. Run 3 92C
4. Run 4 92
5. Run 5 92.
You get the idea.
I think this confirms that the water is hitting the espresso at 93-94.
Changed to single wall basket
Run 6. 80.
Looks like the flow hypothesis was correct.
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Very interesting Tom, is it possible you can show us a video so we can see where you're measuring and we can do it with our own machines?
The flow constraint sounds logical - I'm just hoping the single wall baskets with coffee in generates approximately the same flow conditions these machines were designed for.
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Based (visually) on the flow from the double wall and the flow with a shot in at 19-20g the rates seem similar.
The flow rate with 18 was much faster. This shot was also sour and cool.
Looks like the machine was designed for 19-20, or maybe finer grind?
I'll try get a video when I get a sec. but I'm measuring with a metal food thermometer, which measures at the tip and putting this in the spout to sit in the middle as the water comes down from the basket
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Yes I assume finer grind would achieve the same.
I have a bambino with a niche grinder - am assuming bambino group is same as B-pro so keen to stay in this discussion.
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I have a bambino with a niche grinder - am assuming bambino group is same as B-pro so keen to stay in this discussion.
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So Tom you're measuring temp as it exits PF, not shower screen?
Water entering the pf and therefore the puck should be mid 90's meaning water leaving the pf (after pf has cooled it down) should be less?
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Water entering the pf and therefore the puck should be mid 90's meaning water leaving the pf (after pf has cooled it down) should be less?
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The PF was heated prior to heat losses to it should be very minimal.
And with the bit of plastic in there the water comes out of the shower screen, into pre heated basket (around 85 based on IF thermometer) , onto the plastic disc then channel to where the thermometer is.
I suspect it may loose 1-2 deg, so hits the thermometer at 92. I also tried the increase temp function and managed to measure 95.
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These threads are begging to make me laugh. That stops me from crying. Few things
The grind steps on the SGP cover a much much larger range than the ones built into the machines. Altering the outer burr setting does not change the step size. There can be a reason for adjusting it as per here if it wont grind fine enough. If it does it may worth checking that the burrs don't rub too much on the lowest setting as running like that may damage them and in practice there is no need to go that fine. I haven't even on supermarket beans but I may have been lucky, I've probably tried well over a dozen different beans from these. Maybe 2 were what I would call drinkable.
https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49058-how-to-check-any-sage-grinder/?do=embed
There is little point in measuring coffee flow temperature. On a decent machine it will be around the figure some one who has brewed lots of coffee mentioned and no point in me repeating. If some one wants to know what the brew temperature is that the coffee grinds see buy a Scace.
There is a problem with how hot the coffee finishes up. Fixing that and what happens is covered here - buy another machine and accept a 1/2hr at least heat up time.
https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49451-sage-pro-water-temp/?do=embed
That applies to the BE as well. Hot water is tricky for them. If not hot enough all they can do is add more kw or slow the water flow rate down. The main problem is that their machines don't make good mug warmers and it is generally recognised that hot water is best obtained from a kettle.
One of the things that surprised me on the BE was how different 3 drinks made on the trot tasted. I decided to taste all and usually made mine last. Initially put it down to a cold portafilter. Flushing didn't make any significant difference. Might have done if I ran loads through. I preheated by running a shot through an empty pressurised basket. That got the portafilter hot and with an extraction tool easy to do. Also gives the machine a clean water back flush. This also makes sure that the thermocoil on the BE and any internal pipe work etc was up to temperature. The idea of running steam off before pulling a shot will too - nice one but that still leaves the portafilter etc. Running water out to heat that will need a lot of it. The plastic inserts they fit will help keep the shot at what it should be. The usual aim is 70C - 80C or so when it hits the cup. That is aimed at making good coffee. There are limitations on what pid can do. Coffee is brewed at around 1g of water per second. Steam doesn't use much water. The hot water flow rate is a lot higher. If the machines preheated cups or mugs in the way others do expect it to take 20min. Commercial machines tend to have rather large boilers so there are limitations on how much and how often hot water can be drawn off many machines used at home - hence the kettle. My DB will do one 300ml americano without problems. If I want to do more I have to let the boiler reheat between each one. Takes longer so I use a hot water dispenser.
Waste of time posting about tuning with them and using stepped grinders. The web is way too loud in this respect so I'll just post a link
https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49389-help-with-new-barista-express/page/2/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=711410&embedComment=711410&embedDo=findComment#comment-711410
On the other hand. The other aspect about tuning particularly on the BE is that there is more than enough scope for tuning via variations in brew pressure and time. Nothing is really caste in stone and some probably realise this at some point. You have to use time to flow starting when there is no gauge. So if your shot takes 35sec to hit the miraculous ration of 2 rather than throwing it away taste it. If you do not like that is unlikely to be down to the time but if the same ratio cropped up with a brew time of 25sec and you had tasted that you would know what this variable did to taste. Have a bit of a problem as well as it's not unusual for 25 to 30 secs being mentioned so it should be great. The only other things that can be changed is the weight of grinds or the ratio. If the weight of grinds is too low the puck is likely to be soggy and if the grinds swill around at all taste crap. Increasing the dose has a problem as the grinds need to expand as the hot water goes in. Some restriction on that doesn't do any harm. Maybe an indication of when there has been too much added is that the puck will be rather hard to knock out. Slight signs of the shower screen on the used puck should be ok. Actually the hole in the shower screen fixing screw can be useful for that. Chances are any signs of it is too much more so the coarser the grind is. Another that some others have found eventually is that as the dose is slowly increased the puck tends to stick to the shower screen rather than comes off with the portafilter. A touch more stops that and is ok. Problem - the dose needs to be slowly increased by fractions of a gram and this is the BE and may not apply to others. I'd hope the razor tool still gives a decent starting dose. It's very easy to mess that area up.
So someone upgrades to a stepless grinder - they may be rather surprised how hard it is to adjust flow time by 5secs on many of them. People weigh out and vary time. A volumeteric machine varies time. The BE can be used like that. Assume that the others can as well. Not the DTP though,
Comments about the new thermojets are more interesting. The above is boring me. It sounds to me like there may be a heat in it problem. A blast of steam will probably help with that but to heat the lot including the portafilter use of shot through an empty pressurised basket is probably the best bet. It's not that much faff to do actually with a filter basket extraction tool (amazon) which is also useful for getting the shower screen and seal out with a bit of care. 300 shots before cleaning that !!!!! oh dear especially if only a couple of shots a day. I'd wonder about other aspects as well. Some say back flush weekly. I reckon monthly is ok.
John
--
The grind steps on the SGP cover a much much larger range than the ones built into the machines. Altering the outer burr setting does not change the step size. There can be a reason for adjusting it as per here if it wont grind fine enough. If it does it may worth checking that the burrs don't rub too much on the lowest setting as running like that may damage them and in practice there is no need to go that fine. I haven't even on supermarket beans but I may have been lucky, I've probably tried well over a dozen different beans from these. Maybe 2 were what I would call drinkable.
https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49058-how-to-check-any-sage-grinder/?do=embed
There is little point in measuring coffee flow temperature. On a decent machine it will be around the figure some one who has brewed lots of coffee mentioned and no point in me repeating. If some one wants to know what the brew temperature is that the coffee grinds see buy a Scace.
There is a problem with how hot the coffee finishes up. Fixing that and what happens is covered here - buy another machine and accept a 1/2hr at least heat up time.
https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49451-sage-pro-water-temp/?do=embed
That applies to the BE as well. Hot water is tricky for them. If not hot enough all they can do is add more kw or slow the water flow rate down. The main problem is that their machines don't make good mug warmers and it is generally recognised that hot water is best obtained from a kettle.
One of the things that surprised me on the BE was how different 3 drinks made on the trot tasted. I decided to taste all and usually made mine last. Initially put it down to a cold portafilter. Flushing didn't make any significant difference. Might have done if I ran loads through. I preheated by running a shot through an empty pressurised basket. That got the portafilter hot and with an extraction tool easy to do. Also gives the machine a clean water back flush. This also makes sure that the thermocoil on the BE and any internal pipe work etc was up to temperature. The idea of running steam off before pulling a shot will too - nice one but that still leaves the portafilter etc. Running water out to heat that will need a lot of it. The plastic inserts they fit will help keep the shot at what it should be. The usual aim is 70C - 80C or so when it hits the cup. That is aimed at making good coffee. There are limitations on what pid can do. Coffee is brewed at around 1g of water per second. Steam doesn't use much water. The hot water flow rate is a lot higher. If the machines preheated cups or mugs in the way others do expect it to take 20min. Commercial machines tend to have rather large boilers so there are limitations on how much and how often hot water can be drawn off many machines used at home - hence the kettle. My DB will do one 300ml americano without problems. If I want to do more I have to let the boiler reheat between each one. Takes longer so I use a hot water dispenser.
Waste of time posting about tuning with them and using stepped grinders. The web is way too loud in this respect so I'll just post a link
https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49389-help-with-new-barista-express/page/2/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=711410&embedComment=711410&embedDo=findComment#comment-711410
On the other hand. The other aspect about tuning particularly on the BE is that there is more than enough scope for tuning via variations in brew pressure and time. Nothing is really caste in stone and some probably realise this at some point. You have to use time to flow starting when there is no gauge. So if your shot takes 35sec to hit the miraculous ration of 2 rather than throwing it away taste it. If you do not like that is unlikely to be down to the time but if the same ratio cropped up with a brew time of 25sec and you had tasted that you would know what this variable did to taste. Have a bit of a problem as well as it's not unusual for 25 to 30 secs being mentioned so it should be great. The only other things that can be changed is the weight of grinds or the ratio. If the weight of grinds is too low the puck is likely to be soggy and if the grinds swill around at all taste crap. Increasing the dose has a problem as the grinds need to expand as the hot water goes in. Some restriction on that doesn't do any harm. Maybe an indication of when there has been too much added is that the puck will be rather hard to knock out. Slight signs of the shower screen on the used puck should be ok. Actually the hole in the shower screen fixing screw can be useful for that. Chances are any signs of it is too much more so the coarser the grind is. Another that some others have found eventually is that as the dose is slowly increased the puck tends to stick to the shower screen rather than comes off with the portafilter. A touch more stops that and is ok. Problem - the dose needs to be slowly increased by fractions of a gram and this is the BE and may not apply to others. I'd hope the razor tool still gives a decent starting dose. It's very easy to mess that area up.So someone upgrades to a stepless grinder - they may be rather surprised how hard it is to adjust flow time by 5secs on many of them. People weigh out and vary time. A volumeteric machine varies time. The BE can be used like that. Assume that the others can as well. Not the DTP though,
Comments about the new thermojets are more interesting. The above is boring me. It sounds to me like there may be a heat in it problem. A blast of steam will probably help with that but to heat the lot including the portafilter use of shot through an empty pressurised basket is probably the best bet. It's not that much faff to do actually with a filter basket extraction tool (amazon) which is also useful for getting the shower screen and seal out with a bit of care. 300 shots before cleaning that !!!!! oh dear especially if only a couple of shots a day. I'd wonder about other aspects as well. Some say back flush weekly. I reckon monthly is ok.
John
--
Keeping dose (19g) and yield (just over 2:1) fixed and adjusting the integrated grinder on the Pro, I'm seeing a difference of 7s in shot time between grind settings (based on a small sample).
However as Tom mentioned, dosing below 19g results in a fast poor and lower temp which substantiates the resistive flow theory, recommended dose of 19-22g and feedback provided by the sage technical team. Unfortunately this means I can't underdose at the same grind setting in order to fine tune the extraction.
On the other hand the steps on the BE grinder are further apart. However it seems like I am able to to change the shot time by 1-2 secs at a fixed yield by adjusting the dose in 0.1g increments. When I first purchased the BE I was making the error of not using scales with a 0.1g precision to weigh the dose.
Also I haven't yet been able to find a technique to consistently texture milk on the Pro. As it stands I seem to be leaning towards keeping the BE, although that seems to keep changing...
However as Tom mentioned, dosing below 19g results in a fast poor and lower temp which substantiates the resistive flow theory, recommended dose of 19-22g and feedback provided by the sage technical team. Unfortunately this means I can't underdose at the same grind setting in order to fine tune the extraction.
On the other hand the steps on the BE grinder are further apart. However it seems like I am able to to change the shot time by 1-2 secs at a fixed yield by adjusting the dose in 0.1g increments. When I first purchased the BE I was making the error of not using scales with a 0.1g precision to weigh the dose.
Also I haven't yet been able to find a technique to consistently texture milk on the Pro. As it stands I seem to be leaning towards keeping the BE, although that seems to keep changing...
I was going to have a play with 18g today as I have a La Pavoni grinder which should grind fine and consistently enough to get the right pressure for that dose.
I have found the milk wand is very very powerful. You have to use a little more milk, only tear the paper 4 times to get the air in and submerge quick and remove quick. Are you measuring temp with your hand on the jug?
So although they have brought the steps a little closer together in the Pro, they have also made other design changes that mean there's actually less scope for fine tuning?? Annoying.
FWIW, on the BE I find that the scope for fine tuning is even less with the single shot basket, so this might be more of a point against the BP if you want to pull singles.
Just had a play on the grinder with the pro and you are right! Massive changes with each step. Seems very odd! I went from a 25 second pull to complete choke in about 8 steps.
luckily it was a pretty rubbish roast so I was happy to waste it!
7 espressos and still not dialled
luckily it was a pretty rubbish roast so I was happy to waste it!
7 espressos and still not dialled
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