[Marocchino]

Is that a bit like how the Strega functions?

Couldn't honestly say, I know nothing about the Strega - this is only my second machine in about 20 years of coffee making.

 

[4085]

As many will attest, I am not the most technical of people! I had a Strega many years ago and without checking back, I am sure this was how it operated. On an L1, the pump used to be used only for transferring the water from the reservoir into the boiler, but on the Strega, the pump was used to force water from the boiler into the group. This meant it ws possible to mimic pulling a shot on the pump only and for that reason, the more purist lever owner used to decry the Strega as not being a proper pump. Now, I have not really kept up to speed with all the intricate tweekings of the Londinium series, but if I am right, then the LR24 uses a rotary pump to control the PI pressure. My question to those who will be able to answer this, is surely this is a slightly more advanced version of how the Strega operates? Personally, I always liked the Strega so I am pleased to see others taking on board technology they have been using for years to try and improve things.

 

[BlackCatCoffee]

There are a number of versions of the Strega. As you point out one of them uses a vibration pump to fill the group. You could in theory manipulate this to preinfuse at any pressure up to 9bar by lifting the lever to stop the pump or even just pull a shot like a standard pump machine by leaving the lever down. The difficulty comes as there is no way to know exactly what the pressure is in the group at any given time. You could of course have someone like me with a pf manometer adjust the OPV down to set the pump pressure and therefore preinfusion to a lower level for if you wished at time of purchase.

There is another version that is plumbed in with no pump at all and operates like a very traditional lever machine. That would of course preinfuse at line pressure.

They are a great machine and they offer amazing flexibility and their price point is fantastic for a full blown spring lever affair.

 

[Holonomic]

So, other than the group size and choice of case is there other differences in the vostok 1grp vs the 2-3 group which has been out for some time now?

How does the 2 group stand In regards to other options such as lr24 and none lever options?

 

[DavecUK]

1. So, other than the group size and choice of case is there other differences in the vostok 1grp vs the 2-3 group which has been out for some time now?

2. How does the 2 group stand In regards to other options such as lr24 and none lever options?

1. Differences from Vostok 2 group. Ideally you should read the thread on coffeetime

• 
  Internal tank (with low water detection) or mains fed
  
• 
  internal gear pump
  
• 
  settable preinfusion pressure from 1 to 4.0 bar
  
• 
  Less cup to drip tray height.
  
• 
  2.3 litre service boiler vs 7 or 10 litres...0.8 litre brew boiler vs 3 litres.
  

2. Don't know, don't care, have no interest in commercial multi group machines.

 

[Holonomic]

Thank you Dave, just looked up the coffee time thread, lots more information there!

Very close to placing my order!

 

[Nopapercup]

Can someone explain what difference being able to adjust preinfusion pressure has and why it's better for lighter roasts?

 

[danielpugh]

Can someone explain what difference being able to adjust preinfusion pressure has and why it's better for lighter roasts?

I can't answer that question (preinfusion pressure), but I can say what I am interested in from the Vostok..

1. The LSM group - by all accounts great, double spring so commercial grade pressure. Add to this the group manometer - this should allow for a degree of control of the pressure during extraction.

2. Dual boiler with triple PID - cartridges for fast warmup time and group stability. High temperature for steam, while potentially reducing temperature for brew slightly (or vice versa)- this isn't possible with a single boiler which has a single PID (or pstat for londinium), that sets the boiler temperature which then (because directly connected) heats up the group. so whilst a single boiler can be Amazing I would like a tiny bit more flexibility, and as much thermal consistency as possible.

3. Loads of little bits like; decent group to drip tray height to allow for scales. Solid build with as much SS as possible. Easy/simple maintenance with standard/common parts. Attention to detail like tubes on the opv rather than vent inside machine. Energy efficiency - boiler insulation, built in timer, ability to be on but service boiler off until needed.

Personally I want consistency, and small amount of tweaking/variability (decent is way too much for me), but I also want good steam as we drink plenty of milk based drinks. I want to tweak temperature and pressure and probably preinfusion a bit depending on e.g. bean/roast, and then enjoy the lever and excellent coffee for a long time. Mostly once I have had my time learning the machine I (suspect like most people) will only very rarely change settings as they will be as I want them (that's my theory/hope anyway)..

 

[4085]

Can someone explain what difference being able to adjust preinfusion pressure has and why it's better for lighter roasts?

Am probably wrong, but......lighter roasts are ground finer.....finer particles when tamped off greater resistance for the water particles, so a higher degree of pre infusion pressure helps to saturate the puck......but the benefit is only seen to a certain point. Also Lighter roasts need higher temps to extract

 

[Nopapercup]

Am probably wrong, but......lighter roasts are ground finer.....finer particles when tamped off greater resistance for the water particles, so a higher degree of pre infusion pressure helps to saturate the puck......but the benefit is only seen to a certain point. Also Lighter roasts need higher temps to extract

Thanks @dfk41. I'm a bit of a simpleton with my coffee making as a Pavoni user so I'm probably not understanding the technology. I would have thought higher preinfusion pressure would disturb the puck and increase channeling. I know a lot of pavoni users, myself included are playing around with filter paper on top of the puck to try and reduce this.

Wouldn't a longer preinfusion on lighter roasts also work to saturate the puck instead of higher pressure preinfusion? The obvious example that is often mentioned is the L1 and LR. What makes the LR better for lighter roasts then the older L1?

 

[The Systemic Kid]

The 'R' denotes rotary pump and controls PI on the Londinium giving more choice of setting up to 6 bars. Hitting the puck with six bars isn't, IMO, pre-infusing - it's extraction. There's plenty of info out there on pulling shots at 6 bars. Reiss says using higher PI on the Londinium R raises extraction temp but I'm not aware Reiss has given any figures as to what temp differences there are at different PI settings.

One of the benefits of a PI stage in extraction is that it allows the puck to saturate and expand before being hit with full extraction pressure be it 9-10 bars.

 

[RobW]

This video gives some good insight into the lever style extraction process and the way pressure preinfusion works:

 

[Nopapercup]

Thanks guys, interesting stuff.

How many machines are capable of doing what they said in the above video of the Londinium PI with a hard blast and then down to 3 bar PI besides Londinium and Decent? Is this something the Vesuvius can do or are there other PI profiles that are also well suited to lighter roasts?

 

[DavecUK]

Thanks guys, interesting stuff.

How many machines are capable of doing what they said in the above video of the Londinium PI with a hard blast and then down to 3 bar PI besides Londinium and Decent? Is this something the Vesuvius can do or are there other PI profiles that are also well suited to lighter roasts?

The V-Vostok is quite capable of filling the group fast and then dropping down to the preset pressure with it's gear pump. e.g. you can preset the pressure to 2.5 or 3 bar and as soon as the lever chamber is full it will drop to 3 bar for the preinfusion. no trouble at all.

It has the added advantage over other lever machines in that the group it PID temperature controlled as is the separate brew boiler. Steam boiler can be off or on as it's temperature has no influence on the shot temperature at all.

Oh an unlike single spring lever, the puck down't get 7.5 bar dropping to 4/5 bar very quickly...not to say you couldn't remove a spring from the V-Vostock if you really wanted to...or better still retard/advance the lever and watch the gauge for whatever pressures you want.

 

[The Systemic Kid]

How many machines are capable of doing what they said in the above video of the Londinium PI with a hard blast and then down to 3 bar PI besides Londinium and Decent? Is this something the Vesuvius can do or are there other PI profiles that are also well suited to lighter roasts?

Have a look at the video below - you have probably already seen it. Am guessing Frans has got the PI set pretty high - at or around 6 bars given the pumps on both machines are kicking in repeatedly during pre-infusion. Don't think Frans is adjusting PI pressure during either shots. At lower PI setting, i.e. 3 bar, the pump does not kick in and out during pre-infusion. In the Decent video, guy makes reference, I think, to hitting the puck at 6 bar and then dropping it to 3 bar - this is during pre-infusion. I guess this is possible via using the app but I would wonder how accurate it is as there is no feedback (manometer) to let you know exactly what pressure is occurring at what stage during the extraction.

The Vostok looks as if it takes a different approach which won't be clear until the machines are out there in the hands of those who have experience of Londiniums. The double spring in the San Marco group used in the V will provide a different profile to the single spring on the Londinium which peaks at 8.5 bar when the lever is released. Am guessing that the the pressure declines quite rapidly during the extraction.

As DaveC has demonstrated, it's possible and appears quite easy to retard the spring induced pressure on the V by holding back the lever. The key is that you get feedback in real time thanks to the inclusion of the group head manometer.

 

[4085]

and as we all know, you cannot argue with hard data.......takes guessing and woffle right out of the picture. Can a kindly L1 owner not fit a manometer to their machine or is there something stopping that from happening?

 

[Nopapercup]

The V-Vostok is quite capable of filling the group fast and then dropping down to the preset pressure with it's gear pump. e.g. you can preset the pressure to 2.5 or 3 bar and as soon as the lever chamber is full it will drop to 3 bar for the preinfusion. no trouble at all.

It has the added advantage over other lever machines in that the group it PID temperature controlled as is the separate brew boiler. Steam boiler can be off or on as it's temperature has no influence on the shot temperature at all.

Oh an unlike single spring lever, the puck down't get 7.5 bar dropping to 4/5 bar very quickly...not to say you couldn't remove a spring from the V-Vostock if you really wanted to...or better still retard/advance the lever and watch the gauge for whatever pressures you want.

Thanks Dave, the Vostock sounds like it will be a really interesting machine. Can't wait to see the finished product and if they are going to keep making and selling them.

In theory shouldn't the Vesuvius be able to replicate what the Vostock or Londinium are doing?

 

[John Yossarian]

I wonder how long it would take before someone introduces the term "V League" as a synonym for advanced coffee gear.

 

[Nopapercup]

2 hours ago, The Systemic Kid said:

Have a look at the video below - you have probably already seen it. Am guessing Frans has got the PI set pretty high - at or around 6 bars given the pumps on both machines are kicking in repeatedly during pre-infusion. Don't think Frans is adjusting PI pressure during either shots. At lower PI setting, i.e. 3 bar, the pump does not kick in and out during pre-infusion. In the Decent video, guy makes reference, I think, to hitting the puck at 6 bar and then dropping it to 3 bar - this is during pre-infusion. I guess this is possible via using the app but I would wonder how accurate it is as there is no feedback (manometer) to let you know exactly what pressure is occurring at what stage during the extraction.

The Vostok looks as if it takes a different approach which won't be clear until the machines are out there in the hands of those who have experience of Londiniums. The double spring in the San Marco group used in the V will provide a different profile to the single spring on the Londinium which peaks at 8.5 bar when the lever is released. Am guessing that the the pressure declines quite rapidly during the extraction.

As DaveC has demonstrated, it's possible and appears quite easy to retard the spring induced pressure on the V by holding back the lever. The key is that you get feedback in real time thanks to the inclusion of the group head manometer.

I never realised how loud they are. If you own one in a terraced house or flat, you're not going to be popular with the neighbours.

 

[John Yossarian]

Thanks Dave, the Vostock sounds like it will be a really interesting machine. Can't wait to see the finished product and if they are going to keep making and selling them.

In theory shouldn't the Vesuvius be able to replicate what the Vostock or Londinium are doing?

I can share my experience. The profile on Vesuvius is very similar to what @DavecUK has shown in his Vostok's video. And I believe this was deliberately done. The result is lots of sweet shots.